The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

1. Questions to the Minister for Social Justice

Okay, we are ready to begin. Good afternoon to you all. The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the Minister for Social Justice, and the first question is from Natasha Asghar.

The Welcome Ticket Scheme

Natasha Asghar AS: 1. What discussions has the Minister had with the Deputy Minister for Climate Change regarding the future of the welcome ticket that provides free bus and rail travel for refugees? OQ58649

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much for the question. The Deputy Minister for Climate Change has agreed the extension of the welcome ticket scheme for refugees until March 2023. A working group has been established to take forward a programme of work for the free transport scheme and work needed to be taken beyond April 2023.

Natasha Asghar AS: Thank you so much, Minister. Minister, as far as I'm concerned, the welcome ticket is a fantastic initiative and has been very much welcomed by refugees all across Wales. However, it has been brought to my attention directly from asylum seekers and the Welsh Refugee Council that improvements are needed to make the scheme even better. I do apologise to everyone here if I do sound like I'm repeating myself, Minister, because I did recently raise it in a business statement, but I thought I'd take the opportunity to question you directly myself.
To get onto a bus or a train, refugees have to show either a biometric residence permit, a passport or a letter from the Home Office. I'm sure that you'll agree with me that it is a very important document that refugees are having to carry around with them every time that they want to access public transport here in Wales. And some refugees have been left incredibly embarrassed and stopped using the scheme altogether because some services do not actually recognise the welcome ticket. Apparently, there is a misunderstanding by drivers of the various types of status on biometric residence permits, so, sadly, Minister, many asylum seekers are not eligible for the welcome ticket as well. By extending the scheme to include asylum seekers, it would enable them to better integrate into life in Wales by allowing them to attend English lessons and have volunteering opportunities. So, Minister, will you commit to looking at rolling out a special card that will be universally recognised by drivers to avoid confusion and to stop refugees from having to carry important papers? And will you also look at extending the welcome ticket to include asylum seekers? Thank you so much, Minister.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Natasha Asghar. It's really important that we look to this working group to resolve many of the issues that you've raised. You'll be aware, of course, that the Welsh Government—and it's only the Welsh Government; there is no other scheme of its kind in the UK—provided free transport for asylum seekers in a short pilot, which was managed by the Welsh Refugee Council from January to the end of March this year. So, of course, we're taking forward the outcomes of that pilot to consider free transport options for sanctuary seekers.
It's very important that, in the working group, we've actually got representatives from the Welsh Refugee Council as well as from Transport for Wales and the Welsh Government. And what we're now looking to do is to develop a welcome ticket with a free travel smartcard based on the current concessionary card scheme so that you can then get that eligibility assessment prior to the issue of a free travel pass and eliminate some of the difficulties that have been experienced. It is a really important scheme. We want to look at the eligibility and, as I said, here in Wales, we're going much further, for example, than the UK Government in our offer in terms of travel to integrate into Welsh society.

Fuel Poverty

Adam Price AC: 2. What support is the Welsh Government providing for off-grid homes that are in fuel poverty? OQ58675

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you for your question.

Jane Hutt AC: The Welsh Government provides support to those in fuel poverty in off-grid homes, including the Warm Homes Nest scheme, the discretionary assistance fund, the Welsh Government fuel support scheme and the Fuel Bank Foundation.

Adam Price AC: You will be aware, Minister, that a high percentage of homes in Wales are not connected to the gas grid—it's almost one in five homes. And in some areas in Carmarthenshire, for example, it's as much as 39 per cent. These homes, which are reliant on home-heating oil or other alternative fuels, don't benefit from the cap on fuel prices—they don't get that 4 per cent discount; they'll receive just £100 through the UK Government. Even the Secretary of State for Wales has accepted that that is insufficient. Are you putting pressure on the UK Government to do more? And in the meantime, what additional support, in addition to what you've already mentioned, can we provide to these homes that will face very difficult times in the coming months?

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Adam Price. This is really important—that we're recognising that challenge in those households, and the high proportion not just in your constituency, but across Wales, who are not connected, or not on-grid. And just looking at the issues and the ways in which we've been supporting people in your constituency, in your area, at the end of March 2021, more than 5,000 lower income households in Carmarthenshire had benefited from home energy efficiency measures, because that's crucial, of course, in terms of reducing bills through the Warm Homes programme. But, you're right that the issues in relation to the setting of the price cap—. Of course, the energy regulator has no role in setting the price cap on heating oil and liquid gas, whilst the others are regulated, of course—those who are on the gas and electricity grids.
Now, this is where we have used our discretionary assistance fund, to help reach out to households—DAF support for off-grid households that are unable to afford their next delivery of oil or LPG. That's been extended to next March, and will help households with up to £250 for one-off oil payments or up to three payments of £70 for LPG. And also, I'm sure you're aware of the new Fuel Bank Foundation partnership that we've got with the Fuel Bank Foundation heat fund. But we do put pressure on the UK Government—we are calling on them to recognise the fact that people are losing out. Can I just also say that, in terms of the Government energy Bill support, which is £400 over this winter, it's not reaching many of the households that are off-grid and many on pre-payment meters as well, so we need to make sure that that is addressed. But still we call for a lower price cap for lower income households and a significant increase in the rebate paid through schemes such as the warm home discount from the UK Government.

Samuel Kurtz MS: I'm grateful to the Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr for submitting this question, because many of the circumstances that he described are applicable to my constituency of Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire as well. But it's also important to note that, for many rural households, their home also acts as a place of business, and this is incredibly important for those in the agricultural community, for example—and I declare an interest as a director of Wales young farmers club. On average, off-grid homes have experienced a 21 per cent price increase in the cost of fuel, and a nearly 60 per cent increase over pre-Ukrainian-war prices. However, this disproportionately impacts households that live and work in the same setting. So, given this, can I ask what discussions the Minister has had with her colleague the rural affairs Minister to help alleviate these disproportionate financial pressures on those in our agricultural community? Diolch.

Jane Hutt AC: Well, clearly, the response to the cost-of-living crisis is a cross-Government issue, and the First Minister has set up a Cabinet sub-committee on the cost-of-living crisis. So, we're looking at the impact on households and businesses, and the rural communities and businesses that you've highlighted today, across the board. It is very important that people take up the benefits that they are entitled to—households, of course, that will benefit, in particular some of those farming businesses. So, I'm very pleased that, in terms of the £200 payment from the Welsh Government winter fuel support scheme—only announced at the end of September—already over 200,000 payments have been made. But I think it is important that also we look at the fact that, in rural areas, one in 10 households are reliant on heating oil or liquid gas, as has been said by the Member Adam Price, for their domestic space and water heating, and this increases to 28 per cent of households. And we do call on the UK Government to look at this, in terms of the impact it has. But can I just say, have you taken account—I'm sure you have—of oil-buying syndicates, such as Club Cosy and the Ceredigion fuel clubs that buy fuel together? We want to encourage that, because that can help residents and businesses.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from the party spokespeople. And this afternoon, these questions will all be answered by the Deputy Minister for Social Partnership. The Conservative spokesperson first of all—Joel James.

Joel James MS: Thank you, Llywydd. Deputy Minister, I wanted to pick up, if I may, a few things today in relation to the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Bill. According to the draft Bill, one of the overarching objectives is that, and I quote:
'A statutory duty will be placed on certain public bodies to seek consensus or compromise with their recognised trade unions (or where there is no recognised trade union) other representatives of their staff, when setting their well-being objectives'.
Now, as we all know, this works when consensus or compromise can be reached, and I am sure that in many cases it will. But there is no mention whatsoever in the Bill about what happens when consensus or compromise cannot be reached, and this will undoubtedly cause issues. With this in mind, Deputy Minister, I'm eager to know what will happen when consensus and compromise cannot be reached, and what mechanisms will be in place to allow public bodies to overcome trade union or worker representative sign-off when there is disagreement.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Can I thank the Member for his contribution and the work that he has been doing as a member of the Equality and Social Justice Committee in scrutinising this important piece of legislation as it makes its progress through the legislative system in the Senedd? The Member refers to the duty on certain public bodies to work in social partnership when setting their well-being objectives, and he very much picks up on the wording of it around 'consensus' and 'compromise'. We could have just had the phrase in there 'to consult' but, often, 'consult' can be interpreted in different ways—it could just be a tick-box exercise. So, the consensus and compromise is very, very important—that it's done in a meaningful way. And the Member actually said in his question the likelihood is that this will be reached in these circumstances anyway because most public bodies already work in that way.
You'll be familiar that, as part of the legislation, there will also be the establishment of a social partnership council, and that council will be able to advise Welsh Government, advise bodies, if there are challenges in terms of that part of the legislation, on what could be done to move forward.
I just want to pick up finally, if I may, on the point that the Member said regarding trade union sign-off. There is no sign-off from any of the partners as part of this process. It is about actually what it says on the tin—working together in social partnership.

Joel James MS: Thank you, Deputy Minister, for your answer, but I'm conscious of what I've said, that it's most likely that, in most cases, you are going to get that compromise, but I think, with all the will in the world, you will always still get disagreements that cannot be resolved, and, without a proper mechanism in place, I fear that this Bill could have the potential to grind procurement for public bodies to a halt, and even for them to be held to ransom if unrealistic demands are made. For example, the future generations commissioner has set a precedent for the encouragement of a four-day working week, which trade unions or other worker representatives could ask for, which is, as you no doubt agree, just not achievable for a public body. So, with this in mind, I would like to understand what the Welsh Government's plan is if a trade union has initiated strike action against a public body. If there is a dispute, in my mind, trade unions can quite willingly withhold or withdraw from sign-off unless their conditions were met, whichwould mean that public bodies would fail to meet their statutory duties.So, with this in mind, Deputy Minister, what is stopping trade unions from using the statutory powers within this Bill as leverage in trade union disputes?

Hannah Blythyn AC: So, I think I should start by saying that the right to withdraw labour and the right to strike is a fundamental human right for workers around the world. But the Member—I don't know whether deliberately or just through misunderstanding—seeks to conflate some of the aspects of the legislation and elements more generally. So, I'll just try and pick that apart in the time that I have this afternoon. The Member talked about trade unions apparently holding public bodies to ransom on procurement. Well, the socially responsible procurement process is conducted by those public bodies. We then have a social partnership council, and a public procurement sub-group, which is made up of equal representation of Government, employers and trade unions to work through any challenges that come and to look to mediate. There is no sign-off or ransom, as the Member puts it.
And the other element the Member conflates in his questioning is around working in social partnership and industrial relations and industrial disputes. Social partnership is a way of working—working collaboratively and working together. The legislation in Wales does not seek to legislate on any industrial relation matters, and that is distinctly separate from what the legislation sets out to do.

Joel James MS: Finally, Deputy Minister, in terms of the social partnership council, as you mentioned in one of your earlier responses, there is concern that the council will not adequately represent the wide and diverse range of views present when providing evidence and advice to the Welsh Government. For example, social enterprises, non-unionised workers, ethnic minority communities, health and social care workers, to name but a few, will not be represented, and this risks undermining one of the fundamental aspects of the Bill because the very people that the Bill claims to help won't actually have a voice at the table.It's obvious that expanding the council to include such representatives would, indeed, make the council unworkable. But the alternative is that having, as pointed out by CollegesWales, representatives exclusively from the trade unions risks excluding a significant number of workers and could create a two-tier system of worker voice. It also has the potential to become a quagmire of opposing opinions, where the Welsh Government will be put in a position of alienating some groups over others because their opinions do not conform to Welsh Government thinking. Deputy Minister, how are you going to ensure that a greater section of worker voices is represented? How is the Welsh Government going to ensure a fair assessment of those opinions when taking advice from the council? And how are you going to stop the social partnership council from being reduced to an echo chamber of the Welsh Government and an instrument that only says what the Welsh Government wants to hear? Thank you.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Can I thank the Member for his further questions? I just want to point to one element where people will be surprised that we may agree. It's around the need for diversity of representation as part of the social partnership council, through those bodies that are represented on the body as proposed. You are right that, actually, you can't extend it to everybody, because, as I've said in committee, you'd end up with a conference every time, rather than a council. But on the point of making sure that we have diversity of people, whether that's in terms of their background or protected characteristics, there is a piece of work ongoing now, through our social partnership forum we've established, to look at the operational nature of what the legislation would involve, to make sure that we are working with those bodies to ensure that there is a mechanism to ensure there is that diversity of representation on the council. Again, the Member just misunderstands what the whole point of the council is about, and social partnership. It is not for the Welsh Government to assert our authority over anything or to try and drive our agenda. It's actually recognising that we know, in Wales, that we are stronger by working together as part of a team, using those collective experiences and voices, to shape legislation for the better. I would say that this legislation is significant and landmark, but ultimately it's not about changing legislation; it's about changing lives, and that's what we want to do further along the line.

Questions now from the Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Diolch, Llywydd. Pensioners in the UK are expected to be around £442 per year worse off from April following a reduced pension rate and a cut in help for energy bills. Given that in January this year over 75 per cent of over-65s surveyed by Age UK were worried by the rising cost-of-living crisis, and, since then, the inflation rate and the cost of energy bills have only continued to skyrocket, what is the Deputy Minister doing to further welfare reform by maximising the use of our devolved competencies to ensure that support is targeted towards older people who need help, especially those who will be facing higher than average energy and mobility costs? Could you also shed some light on whether over-60s are getting more help to access the discretionary assistance fund, bearing in mind answers I had to a written question I submitted earlier this year suggesting that less than 1 per cent of over-60s accessed the fund?

Hannah Blythyn AC: I thank the Member for his question and his interest in this area. Clearly, there are some challenges involved because of where the boundaries lie between what is devolved and what isn't, but clearly we are committed—myself and my colleague Jane Hutt, and colleagues right across Government—to using all the levers we have at our devolved disposal to make a difference. The Member is right to raise the particular impact of the cost-of-living crisis, which is hitting too many in communities right across the country, but the particular impact it has on perhaps pensioners who will have a fixed income. Through our 'Claim what's yours' campaign, we recognise what you're saying about online access; we want to ensure that we look at ways in which people can access that information and that it's readily available in the places that they may go to get support, and make sure they are accessing what they are entitled to and that the additional support is there. I'm not familiar with the written question you raised about access to the discretionary assistance fund, but my colleague Jane Hutt is sitting here nodding as I answer, and I'm sure that's something we'd be happy to take away and look at to see if there's anything else we can do to ensure that age group are aware that support is there, should they need it, in these very difficult circumstances.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Diolch. Sorry if it is falling between two Ministers, as it were. Any information would be gratefully received. Thank you very much.
Last month marked Black History Month. A timely report by the Trades Union Congress released that month revealed that racism and discrimination towards black workers is still rife in the UK. The statistics in the report 'Still rigged: racism in the UK labour market' that account for racist incidents in the workplace are shocking. To make matters worse, when racist incidents were reported in the workplace, the TUC found that action taken to prevent harassment was taken in just 29 per cent of cases. It isn't surprising, then, that four in five respondents say they wouldn't or haven't reported racism in the workplace for fear of it not being taken seriously or having a negative impact on their work life. How does the anti-racist action plan that the Welsh Government published this year target this issue? Are the measures within the plan enough to reach the target of an anti-racist Wales by 2030 and truly make our economy an equal playing field?

Hannah Blythyn AC: The Member refers to the anti-racist action plan, which was launched back in June by my colleague the Minister for Social Justice. I'm familiar with the event he refers to that Wales TUC held to mark Black History Month. Nobody should face discrimination or hate in any part of society or any walk of life. People should certainly be safe to be themselves and to not face discrimination within the workplace, particularly within those workplaces where we have more leverage in the public sector here in Wales. Inclusive workplaces and tackling racism in the workplace is a key component of the anti-racist action plan. We've worked very closely with employers and with trade unions as part of that, and we're also undergoing training around inclusive workplaces and what that means—to call it out and to support people. There's a lot more work to be done, but we recognise that working in partnership and using those resources that we know some of our trade union colleagues already have in place, and their support networks to enable people to have somebody to go to for advice and support within those workplaces, will make them more inclusive. It's very much something that we're committed to taking forward to ensure that nobody—nobody—faces discrimination whilst they are at work.

The White Ribbon Promise

Jack Sargeant AC: 3. How is the Welsh Government encouraging men and boys in Wales to make the White Ribbon promise? OQ58661

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Jack Sargeant, for that question. The Welsh Government organises activities each year to promote the White Ribbon campaign and highlight the violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence agenda as part of the 16 days of activism. This year, our officials will host an internal event in the Welsh Government to raise awareness and encourage officials to become White Ribbon ambassadors.

Jack Sargeant AC: Can I thank the Minister for that answer? I will be delighted to join you at that event for Welsh Government officials to encourage officials to become White Ribbon ambassadors. I will declare at this point that I am, Llywydd, a White Ribbon ambassador, just as my dad was. But, I'm not the only campaigner for the White Ribbon cause here in the Senedd. My close friend and colleague Joyce Watson has dedicated years to promoting events and sign-up to the White Ribbon promise to get that real clear goal of ending domestic violence. Minister, do you agree with me that all men and boys in Wales should make the promise to never use, excuse or remain silent about male violence against women?

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much indeed, Jack Sargeant, and thank you for being the White Ribbon ambassador that you've been for so many years. And of course, we remember so well your father and the way that he championed the White Ribbon cause, and recognising that, of course, the White Ribbon cause is led by men to eliminate violence against women and girls. We will be coming together at the end of November; we have a 'light a candle' event at Llandaff cathedral, and that's a multifaith event hosted by BAWSO to recognise that international day. It is absolutely crucial that we have your support. All the men here in the Chamber will be backing that, hopefully, and wearing their white ribbons as well. It's actually to ensure that men commit that they will not condone or remain silent about violence against women. I'm very pleased that I've committed to a new phase of 'Don't be a bystander' training. This is where you have to speak up. I've actually agreed three-year funding to develop pan-Wales bystander intervention training that will be delivered to all of the citizens of Wales.

James Evans MS: I'd like to thank Jack Sargeant for raising this vitally important question. As he did, I'd like to take this moment just to thank Joyce Watson for all her long-continued work in this area; she's an absolute champion for the White Ribbon campaign.
Peer-on-peer sexual harassment in our schools is totally unacceptable, and it's happening up and down Wales. This was found in the recent peer-on-peer sexual harassment inquiry done by the Children, Young People and Education Committee. These behaviours need to be stamped out, and White Ribbon Day is an excellent way to draw attention to this problem, spur on action and get our boys in schools to make the White Ribbon promise. I'd like to ask the Minister: what steps is the Welsh Government taking, specifically regarding schools, to end harassment and violence in those institutions, to ensure that we do not see that these young people manifest their problems into adulthood, which then causes more violence against women?

Jane Hutt AC: Can I thank you for that question and, at this point, also acknowledge and endorse what has been said by the two Members about Joyce Watson and her leadership as far as the White Ribbon cause is concerned? It is important what you say in terms of how we can reach out to our children and young people, and school obviously is the place to do this, because violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence obviously can have a huge impact on children and young people. I do think that it's really important that we look at the way in which our relationships and sexuality education, now a statutory requirement in the Curriculum for Wales framework and mandatory for our learners, is actually going to focus on developing healthy relationships from the early years, furthering our aim to ensure all children and young people have the ability to enjoy healthy, happy, respectful relationships now and in the future. But also, we continue to fund Hafan Cymru's Spectrum project, which has been working in schools delivering training for staff, because that's crucial for our staff and governors in understanding the impact domestic abuse can have on children and young people.

Joyce Watson AC: There is, as you say, Minister, some fantastic work that's going on in the schools around respectful and healthy relationships, and that's hugely important. But we need to spread the message wider than schools and take it outside the school gates to organisations like, for example, the Scouts and army cadets, football clubs, and other places where boys find themselves. So, are you able to tell me if there's any work that you're doing to influence those organisations in exploring ways that they can help those individuals become role models and amplify the White Ribbon message?

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you, Joyce Watson, because we do need to go outside. We've commented on the opportunities and the work that's been done in schools with children and young people, and the importance of the new curriculum in terms of that relationships and sexuality education framework, but we also need to reach out to all of those organisations where young people gather and engage. I think it is interesting, and many of you will know from your contact with Girl Guides and Scouts, how they are beginning to embrace these issues, recognising issues relating to equality and also addressing harassment and sexual abuse, and understanding what children and young people are experiencing, which, of course, has been an important point of the inquiry undertaken by the Children, Young People and Education Committee. But also football clubs, army cadets—this is where we can take the White Ribbon message, and I think that Jack Sargeant, and all of those who are engaging with the White Ribbon campaign, can get that message over and reach out to those organisations working with children and young people.

The Fire Service

Tom Giffard AS: 4. How does the Minister ensure that the fire service benefits the people of South Wales West? OQ58647

Hannah Blythyn AC: I continue to work with the fire and rescue services across Wales to ensure that people, communities and the environment are kept as safe as possible from fires and other hazards. In the longer term, we remain committed to ensuring the sustainability and safety of the services and to broadening the role of firefighters.

Tom Giffard AS: I'm grateful to you for your answer. I wanted to draw your attention to the terrible fire at Windmill Farm, a much-loved rural hotel and wedding venue on the Gower peninsula, in the heart of my South Wales West region. The blaze spreadrapidly across the property, and firefighting efforts were delayed by an insufficient water supply to operate the hoses and the time taken in transporting a bowser to the scene. Having met with the owners of the venue myself, I've seen first-hand the stress, heartbreak and financial cost that has been borne as a result of the fire. So, I think it's crucial that, regardless of administrative boundaries, all local fire authorities can come together to ensure that crucial equipment such as bowsers are located in areas that best serve the needs of local communities.
In England, fire and rescue authorities must attempt to enter into reinforcement schemes or mutual aid agreements with other fire and rescue authorities for securing mutual assistance. They're also obliged to respond to incidents such as fire, road traffic collisions and other emergencies within their areas, in line with their mutual aid agreements too. Therefore, Minister, will you commit to working with the fire and rescue service and Welsh Water to ensure that vital firefighting equipment such as bowsers are installed in the right places to maximise geographic cover across Wales, regardless of which fire authority boundary someone lives in, to ensure that a tragedy like that won't be repeated?

Hannah Blythyn AC: I thank the Member for his supplementary question, and my heart goes out to the people whose premises were destroyed in this terrible, terrible fire. I'm aware of the incident that he refers to, of the operational challenges in terms of access to water for Dŵr Cymru and the Mid and West Wales Fire and Rescue Service. It's an operational matter for those services, but I'd be more than happy to follow up to see, actually, if more can be done in our regular meetings with the fire and rescue services to ensure that these things, if there are any concerns, are acted upon proactively rather than reactively in the future.

Mike Hedges AC: In South Wales West, we have different boundaries for the police service and the fire and rescue service, with the ambulance service on an all-Wales basis. Has the Minister considered consulting on reorganising the fire service so that its boundaries mirror the police boundaries?

Hannah Blythyn AC: I thank Mike Hedges for his question. I think what Mike means is not necessarily—. Some of the fire and rescue service boundaries are aligned with those of local health boards, but the footprints are not the same in terms of the area that they cover. I could say that there aren't any plans to align those boundaries, as I understand it. However, what we are focused on at the moment is actually where organisations can work together or co-locate; we know that that has a positive result, not just in terms of the services working together, but in terms of the relationships that have been able to be built up between them. Just a point of interest on that, in the Member's region, the mid and west fire and rescue service covers Swansea and Neath Port Talbot, which are both near South Wales Police, but the two organisations have a long-established relationship and share the same control room, and we've seen the co-location of services where we've got ambulance and fire and rescue, and that's something that we're keen to support as a Government.

Question 5 [OQ58641] is withdrawn. Question 6, Peter Fox.

Men Experiencing Domestic Abuse

Peter Fox AS: 6. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to improve support for men experiencing domestic abuse? OQ58650

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you for that question. We are continuing to improve our response to domestic abuse through our national strategy. We fund the Dyn project to support male victims of domestic abuse and continue to fund awareness training to recognise indicators displayed by men who may be experiencing domestic abuse.

Peter Fox AS: Thank you, Minister, for that response. Presiding Officer, I ask this question whilst, of course, recognising that violence against women and girls in particular is far too prevalent in society, and, as men, we must challenge abuse and violence in all of its forms, and I agree with what's been said; I too was a White Ribbon ambassador for my previous organisation, and I'm happy to continue that in this one.
However, I want to use this question to raise an issue of men who are experiencing domestic abuse. Whilst it's not a topic that is often discussed, it too is an issue that occurs far too often in society. The Older People's Commissioner for Wales noted that around a quarter of people who experience abuse are male, and that male victims tend to be older, with the highest proportion of those affected aged 75 or over. Whilst organisations such as Both Parents Matter Cymru offer support, the report by the older people's commissioner found that men may be reluctant to seek help due to the stigma of being a male victim of abuse. The small number of domestic abuse services targeted specifically at men are under-resourced, meaning that the support that they're able to provide is often very limited. Minister, what action is the Welsh Government taking to raise wider awareness of abuse against men, and particularly older men? And how are you working with the commissioner and other public bodies to ensure that the adequate support services are available? And, finally, what consideration have you given to ensuring that a strategy to eradicate violence against men is put in place that can sit alongside the great work that is already happening to prevent violence against women and girls?

Jane Hutt AC: Well, thank you very much, Peter Fox, for starting your supplementary with the recognition of our response to the earlier question, with your support and endorsement for the White Ribbon campaign, and recognising, in terms of the statistics, the impact of violence against women and girls and just looking at the fact that the percentage of domestic abuse-related offences recorded by the police identified that 73.1 per cent of offences affected female victims and 26.9 per cent male victims, ending March 2021.
But I think your point about domestic abuse affecting older people, and older men particularly in relation to your question, is key. Because I've recently met with the older people's commissioner myself and we discussed the findings of her report on improving support and services for older men experiencing domestic abuse. So, we now have our next phase of the strategy of the violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence, implementing the legislation, and we are looking at these issues. We're going to have an older person's working group within the blueprint, which is the approach we're taking now. I'm co-chairing a national implementation board with the police and crime commissioner for Dyfed Powys, and we're looking at this from the criminal justice as well as the social justice perspective, so I do believe that the older person's working group within the blueprint will look at these particular issues that you raise.

Early Years Childcare

Jenny Rathbone AC: 7. How does the equality impact assessment for the phase 2 expansion of early years childcare provision via the Flying Start programme compare to the assessment completed for phase 1? OQ58664

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Jenny Rathbone, for that question. As you well understand, of course, the focus of this question doesn't fall within my ministerial portfolio in terms of policy, but I'm very happy to respond in terms of the impact assessment issue. Phase 2 of the expansion of Flying Start builds on the approach taken in phase 1. That's reflected in the equality impact assessment. And, of course, high-quality early years provision does help ensure that every child has the best start in life and fulfils their potential.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Okay. My understanding is that it is within your portfolio to look at the equality impact of all Government policies, and that, obviously, includes Flying Start, while I appreciate that you're not the Minister who actually carries responsibility for that programme.
So, I'm interested in looking at how the phase 1 expansion for £20 million, which increased the numbers of children benefiting from that additional support by a further 2,500, compared with phase 2, which is £26 million for 3,000 additional two-year-olds to get free Flying Start childcare from next April. But, as raised by Cardiff Council, the concerns they have about this phase 2 are that those additional children getting the additional childcare earlier on doesn't include them in the important increased support for health visitors, speech and language, and other parenting support. And I'm interested in exploring why we've done that, because it's all about the evaluation of how much impact the childcare has if it hasn't also been accompanied by that additional health visiting and other parenting support.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Jenny, for that question. I fully recognise the importance of the equality impact assessment and how that guides us in terms of moving forward with this all-important Flying Start programme, which has such an impact on children's lives. Now, of course, as you are fully aware and you're so engaged with this, not every family receiving phase 2 provision would require further services, but the families who do need that additional support will continue to have the opportunity to access support through existing routes. So, I hope that gives you some reassurance about phase 2, learning from phase 1. If they need additional support, they will be able to access that, and if we can reassure the parents or Cardiff Council about the importance and the impact of the expansion that's going to take place.
Clearly, the Deputy Minister for Social Services is working very closely with local authorities in terms of monitoring whether phase 2 provision leads to increased referrals to other services, and we'll work very flexibly with local services to support them to meet additional needs. But I think what's really important is that Flying Start is able to provide and offer that high-quality childcare environment, coupled with high-quality staff, in supporting improved outcomes for children. I do think, in terms of the importance and the announcement that was made recently by the Deputy Minister for Social Services, as part of the Plaid Cymru partnership and the co-operation agreement, with Siân Gwenllian, it's so important that we've got this extension of the £26 million over the next two years to expand Flying Start to support long-term positive impacts on the lives of children and families across Wales.
And just finally, Llywydd, just to say that, obviously, I'm responsible for tackling poverty as well, and we know that the provision of childcare is crucial, and with the evidence and indeed the Wales Centre for Public Policy and the Bevan Foundation showing that investment in childcare, with an additional 3,000 two-year-olds accessing high-quality childcare, is a huge step forward in terms of tackling child poverty.

Gareth Davies AS: I'm pleased that this question has been raised this afternoon over the Flying Start scheme, and it's not the first time I've raised this issue, but I get deeply concerned over the postcode lottery of the scheme, where funding is based on where somebody lives rather than on their financial situation, and essentially a scenario in which wealthy people can qualify and people who need it the most actually miss out, in some cases. So, what consideration does the Welsh Government give to this notion, and what steps do you intend to take to remove barriers to the scheme and provide equity in the system?

Jane Hutt AC: I'd just repeat what I said in answer to the earlier questions. Flying Start helps families with young children in the most disadvantaged areas of Wales. That's the crucial thing. We need to target that support. It includes free part-time quality childcare for children aged two and three living in those areas, and in April, we announced that up to 2,500 more children would be eligible for Flying Start, and that will include children that you represent across Wales. The first phase of the programme began at the start of September, and phase 2 will make more than 3,000 additional two-year-olds eligible.
Also, I think it's important to say that there's the £70 million for improvements to facilities and maintenance for registered childcare settings, and that those settings can apply for that funding through their local authorities.

Modern Slavery

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: 8. Will the Minister provide an update on recent discussions with the UK Government about modern slavery? OQ58666

Hannah Blythyn AC: Welsh Ministers last met with the then UK Minister responsible for modern slavery in May and officials are in regular contact with the Home Office.

Hannah Blythyn AC: We continue to press the UK Government for a victim- and survivor-focused approach to modern slavery, in which safeguarding is of primary concern.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you for that response. The Minister will know, I'm sure, that the UK Government has moved modern slavery recently from the Minister for safeguarding to an issue at the bottom of the list of the Minister for illegal immigration and asylum. A constituent has contacted me to voice concerns about this. She's concerned about the risk that it means for victims of slavery. She questions specifically how it's possible to justify doing this in the case of immigration when nearly a third of modern slavery victims are British citizens anyway. This could mean disregarding a great proportion of them.
Now, victim blaming, that's what the Home Secretary has done recently, saying that people are claiming to be trafficked in order to abuse or take advantage of the immigration rules—disgraceful comments that don't take any notice ofthe suffering that people face. But, unfortunately, we've come to expect no better from Conservative Home Secretaries. What steps can the Minister take in order to try and ensure that the support is maintained for victims of modern slavery in Wales, despite this decision by the UK Government?

Hannah Blythyn AC: I thank the Member for his supplementary question, as I absolutely agree with everything he said in terms of the disgusting way in which victims are potentially being scapegoated by the UK Government now, and I share his and his constituents' concerns about the fact that we did have a safeguarding Minister and now it sits under immigration. And conflating the two, I think, is a very dangerous and distressing route to go down. And alongside that, since July, we've seen a procession of different UK Ministers holding the modern slavery brief, and that chaotic churn of Ministers is leading to delays and uncertainty in the development of the new modern slavery strategy for England and Wales. We're concerned that the post of the independent anti-slavery commissioner has remained vacant since back in April. So, I and my colleague Jane Hutt are continuing to press UK Government on this matter, but also working through the Wales anti-slavery leadership group and doing what we can do with the levers we have in Wales to make sure we are supporting people and taking a very different approach. Some people can say it's just words, but we know words have impact, and it's very dangerous and damaging rhetoric, and we're working to do what we can do along with things like our code of ethical procurement and supply chains, working to review that and strengthen it as we move forward.

Finally, question 9, Carolyn Thomas.

Royal Mail Workers

Carolyn Thomas AS: 9. What discussions has the Welsh Government had regarding the pay and conditions of Royal Mail workers in Wales? OQ58677

Hannah Blythyn AC: Whilst oversight of postal services remains reserved to the UK Government, I met separately with Royal Mail and the Communication Workers Union back in July regarding the situation. I have since written to both parties—just last month—to request an update on the situation and urge a resolution that works for the workforce and postal services.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Thank you for that, Minister. Before being elected as a Member of the Senedd, I was a postal worker for Royal Mail, and I know how hard deliverers work day in, day out. I walked an average of 12 miles a day for five or six hours, in all weather—extreme heat, storms, snow—and my ex-colleagues have embraced change already to increase productivity and efficiency, being more flexible regarding hours, fleet of foot, coping with increased rounds, lapsing of rounds, using postal digital assistants and van shares, to name a few. We owe them a debt of gratitude for their dedication during the pandemic and to their customers. I understand that CWU are now in intensive negotiations with Royal Mail about pay and conditions, showing how important it is to be part of a trade union. Minister, will you join me in encouraging the Royal Mail to engage fully with the union to achieve a positive outcome for these negotiations for the benefit of workers, as well as the general public who rely on their service? Diolch.

Hannah Blythyn AC: May I join Carolyn Thomas in urging Royal Mail and the CWU to continue that work, in partnership with the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service, on a resolution to this dispute? I also agree that any such resolution needs to work for postal services, postal workers and the people of Wales, and I want to join her in paying tribute to the role that our posties play in communities right across the country, whether that be rural or urban. They're not just doing a job; they provide a vital community service. And I actually remember seeing the Member, because her postal round wasn't far from where I live, and I can confirm I did see her out in all weather making sure that people in the communities across my constituency received their post.

I thank the Deputy Minister and the Minister.

2. Questions to the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution

We move now to questions to the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution, and the first question is from Huw Irranca-Davies.

The Devolution Settlement

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: 1. What discussions has the Counsel General had regarding the impact of the recent changes in the UK Government on the devolution settlement? OQ58678

Mick Antoniw AC: I can emphasise the importance of strong inter-governmental relations and that open engagement between the Governments at every opportunity is taken. The instability of the UK Government and frequent UK ministerial changes have clearly made it difficult to form long-lasting, productive links, which are vital in underpinning sound inter-governmental relations.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Counsel General, Luke Fletcher MS and I have just returned from attending the second meeting of the UK-EU Parliamentary Partnership Assembly in London. It was good to attend that; Alun Davies and colleagues—Sam—have attended before, and it's an emerging feast of a body, and it's growing more muscular as well. But one of the themes within that is the need for this—regardless of the systems in place—regular engagement, routine engagement, between Ministers at a UK level and at an EU level, particularly in this post-Brexit scenario. We've got the Northern Ireland Protocol Bill—we don't know what's happening quite with that at the moment. We've got the EU retained law—we're not quite sure what's happening with that. We've got the Bill of Rights Bill and the impact on citizens' rights, let alone the wider panoply of legislation coming down the line. In a different context, the First Minister once used that phrase, 'the regular, reliable rhythm of meetings', how important that is. So, does he share my hopes that, with the new Government and the new Prime Minister, but all those new Ministers, that this will now become the norm that there are regular, routine, reliable meetings between Ministers, so that we can deal with some of these pressing issues?

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for that supplementary question, and I do totally agree: there is a need for regular engagement, for consistent engagement, and properly planned engagement as well, and that engagement should be taking place in respect of all aspects of the UK Government's legislative programme that engages with us, that triggers our particular obligations, but also all the areas of interdependency that arise as well.
I think it was really most disappointing that there was a long delay—. Well, in fact, it's taken so long to get now to a situation where the current Prime Minister is now talking to the First Ministers of Scotland and Wales, and I give credit to the new Prime Minister that that was one of the first things that he did do, and it's a very important statement. There was a comment that was made that the previous Prime Minister was very busy, and really that is not a satisfactory answer when that situation arises, because you can never be too busy to say that you are concerned about the importance of your relationship with the four nations of the UK.
On a personal basis, I've already had introductory meetings with the Attorney General Victoria Prentis. I did meet with her predecessor; there was a very quick change then. I've met also with Lord Bellamy, who will be visiting the Senedd, and there'll be an opportunity for meetings with myself and with the Minister for Social Justice.
But I do agree. We need early and open engagement between the Governments on all policy areas. We need a period of stability and co-operation to support closer working relationships between the Governments in all our mutual interests.

Question 2 [OQ58643] is withdrawn. Question 3—Carolyn Thomas.

Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill

Carolyn Thomas AS: 3. What discussions has the Counsel General had with other law officers about the timetable for the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill? OQ58676

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for the question. We are monitoring the Bill’s progress through Parliament whilst continuing our engagement with the UK Government on the proposed timeline for its coming into force and the implementation of provisions and what this will entail in terms of implications for Wales.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Thank you for the answer, Counsel General. I know you agree that this bonfire of the EU retained law started by Rees-Mogg is an extremely dangerous one. Not only does it put at risk important protections, including workers' rights and climate measures, it's also a blatant attempt to undermine devolution, Welsh Government and this Senedd. Given that this Bill will have serious implications for the devolved nations, I find it totally unacceptable that they have not been properly consulted. Counsel General, what representations have you made to the UK Government about this matter, and what discussions have you had with other law officers about protecting the competencies—sorry, I can't say it very well—of this Senedd? Thank you.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you. The Bill is obviously something that is very significant; it transfers enormous powers to UK Government Ministers, who would have the option of not instating, or not retaining, certain legislation in UK Government, almost at their discretion. The example that I know has been publicised very well is the one, for example, of statutory holiday pay, which derives from the EU retained law. Were that not to be retained and reinstated into UK law, it would at a stroke actually be eliminated, so we would lose that, and there are many other examples where individual rights that individuals have could disappear at a stroke with virtually no scrutiny from UK Government. Our concern as a Welsh Governmentis, of course, that the Bill contains issues in respect of concurrent powers for UK Government Ministers in the retained EU law Bill that can be exercised in devolved areas. It has a sunsetting clause that was set for 31 December 2023. This relates to something like 2,400 pieces of legislation. I think I've already commented, as, indeed, have other nations of the UK commented, that, basically, this would almost completely overwhelm not only the UK Government's legislative programme, but ours as well, if we were to try and address this. So, we are looking at very careful options on that.
I suppose there is some hope in terms of some comments that maybe there will be a review of it. My view is that this piece of legislation is wholly unnecessary. It doesn't actually achieve anything or do anything of any significance when you consider all the particular challenges that exist. I'm very moved by the comment from the former environment Secretary Theresa Villiers. She was a Brexiteer, so she has a vested interest in Brexit and these issues, but she said that the proposals would take up vast amounts of civil service time and would involve undoing legislation that, in many cases, was broadly popular and good for the country. Others have expressed a view that this Bill is potentially an ideological millstone. So, we're monitoring it very, very closely. I had two meetings with the previous Minister, Rees-Mogg. That, of course, has changed, but there will be opportunities for further discussions, and this is very much on the Welsh Government's and on my radar.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, first of all. Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Responding to your statement here in May on justice in Wales, I stated,
'given that senior police officers told me during my visit to the north-west regional organised crime unit that: all north Wales emergency planning is done with north-west England; 95 per cent or more of crime in north Wales is local or operates on a cross-border east-west basis; North Wales Police have no significant operations working on an all-Wales basis; and that evidence given to the Thomas commission'
regarding this
'was largely ignored in the commission's report',
I asked,
'why do you think that the Thomas commission on justice report only includes a single reference to any cross-border criminality in the context of county lines, and that the solution it proposes is joint working across the four Welsh forces in collaboration with other agencies, but no reference to partners across the border, with whom most of the work is actually being done?'
You accused me of 'a head-in-the-sand response', when, instead, ignoring these key issues would represent a dangerous head-buried-in-sand approach—

Mark Isherwood, I am sorry to cut across, but we were all there when you asked these questions and had this response. If you can ask your question of today, please—and you're out of time now, but I'll allow you to ask it.

Mark Isherwood AC: What, if any, action have you therefore since taken to investigate the serious omissions I identified and gather the necessary missing evidence?

Mick Antoniw AC: My role isn't to answer for the Thomas commission, or to take up specific issues that are in or not within the Thomas commission. What my role has been—Welsh Government's role—is to consider the totality of the recommendations made by the Thomas commission, to evaluate them and see how those might be pursued.
The issue of the devolution of policing is obviously one that has been taken up, and it is one that's resulted in quite a range of meetings between myself, the Minister for Social Justice, as well, at the police partnership board that has been set up, and a very close collaboration as well with the police and crime commissioners. In doing so, what we seek to do is to have a proper partnership in terms of those areas that are devolved that clearly do relate to policing, which is why we, obviously, want the devolution of policing, the partnership between the four police areas, but, of course, any other areas that overlap in terms of engagement there are equally valid. Now, those organisational matters are obviously matters for the chief constable, but they do get discussed, so I don't think there are grounds there for criticism, because what we are looking at is how the partnership between our responsibilities and policing can actually work collaboratively together. I don't think the points you make on whether they're sustainable or not sustainable really have any real bearing on the importance of actually having that partnership, having that engagement or actually undermining the view that we've taken, but also that the police and crime commissioners hold—all four of them, who have been democratically elected—that there is merit in the development of the devolution of policing.

Mark Isherwood AC: Without this gaping hole being filled, there's clearly no real basis to go forward on the basis of an only partial report.
But responding to you in May, I detailed evidence showing that the UK Government is actually more aligned with the Welsh Government approach to justice than otherwise and has stated repeatedly that it favours policy based on prevention through tackling social challenges and rehabilitation, quoting, for example, the UK Ministry of Justice's 'Prisons Strategy White Paper' to rehabilitate offenders and cut crime; the female offender strategy to divert vulnerable female offenders away from short prison sentences; and the UK Government's turnaround scheme to catch and prevent youth offending earlier than ever to help stop these children and young people from moving on to further, more serious offending.
I also quoted, as you did, the former UK justice Minister, Lord Wolfson, at the October 2021 Legal Wales conference, where he said that being part of an England and Wales justice system made Wales a more attractive place to do business and that,
'We are continuing to work closely with the Welsh Government to deliver justice in Wales, including the joint work on supporting women and young people, and taking forward some of the recommendations of the Thomas Commission'.
What progress has, therefore, been achieved with this in the 13 months since—I appreciate you might be tempted to respond by just commenting on the last couple of months—as we go forward?

Mick Antoniw AC: Thanks for the question. The discussions that take place and the work that goes on isn’t something that just happened in the last couple of months—it is work of a long, continuous process. One of the reasons it’s part of that long process is because there is a real dysfunction in the England and Wales jurisdiction. I have to say that my view is that the England and Wales jurisdiction is dysfunctional and is not working. That is one of the reasons why we’ve published a paper, 'Delivering Justice for Wales', in order to put those across, not in terms of the issue of who controls justice or whatever, but, basically, how can it be delivered better? And you’d be perfectly valid in asking for details as to how we think that can be delivered better.
Of the work that is going on, much of it is actually borne by my colleague the Minister for Social Justice in terms of women’s issues; in terms of a women’s blueprint; in terms of the youth justice work that is going on; in terms of the issues over the women’s residence and the prison issues that arise. Those are things that have been going on for many, many months and have also been ones that have engaged partnership between the Ministry of Justice and the Welsh Government and between all the other agencies and bodies that have a direct interest within that. And I think those have been very effective and very successful, but they are only part of the picture.
There was a very interesting publication that’s just come from Cardiff University on criminal justice—The Welsh Criminal Justice System: On the Jagged Edge—which really begins to highlight the dysfunction in our justice system: the fact that we have no proper alignment between all the devolved functions and a very centralised Ministry of Justice, where Wales only plays a very peripheral part.
You raised issues also with regard to policing. I mean, let’s be honest about it in terms of the issues around crime and police operations: when the Conservative Government came into power in 2010, you cut 22,000 police officers and you’re now talking about appointing 15,000, to some extent rectifying that disastrous damage that was actually done to policing and community safety.
So, we work as a partnership; we work across board; we seek whatever opportunities there are for joint working and there are a number of blueprints and projects that are jointly under way. But they are really on the surface of what is happening. There is a need for a far deeper consideration of justice and I do not accept your view, and I don’t think any logical, evidential analysis of the England and Wales jurisdiction can say that it is serving Wales well. That was a view that was found by the Thomas commission as well, but I think it’s been justified in significant other evidence since then.

Mark Isherwood AC: Without the evidence I referred to, we can't tell whether it is working any better or any worse than it would if devolved. The suggestions might be to the contrary in the absence of such evidence. And of course, those police officers, the cuts were reversed, and we're now well on the road to deliver on 20,000 new police officers within the three-year target.
But responding to you in May, I noted, for example, that Wales has the highest proportion of children in the UK in care, and one of the highest proportions of children looked after by any state in the world, and asked,
'Is it therefore not the case that such a difference in delivery within what is a shared criminal justice system shows why the calls for devolution of criminal justice should not be answered?'
I also noted that, in consequence of the UK Government's female offenders strategy, the Minister for Social Justice here had written to Members, stating that she'd been working closely with the UK Ministry of Justice, and announcing that one of these centres would be near, and asked,
'How will this help vulnerable women offenders in north, mid and west Wales to access the services they need closer to home?'
Rather than answer this, you instead stated that it was thanks to the Minister for Social Justice that
'we actually have the women's residential centre...coming to fruition.'
Plans for this centre were subsequently turned down by Swansea Council. So, what is the current state of play, where women prisoners from England can now be released from Welsh prisons for rehabilitation in centres in England, but women prisoners in Wales cannot be released to equivalent centres in Wales?

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, I think you've just put a very good case for the devolution of justice, because that's exactly one of the reasons why we have been doing that, why we work in partnership where we can, but you need a proper, consistent and organised devolution of responsibilities to enable us to get rid of that jagged edge within the criminal justice system. You talk about the numbers of people that are in care, and you talk about the numbers in prison, and so on. What is very clear from the data is that Wales has one of the highest numbers of women that are actually in prison. We also have almost the highest level of, I think, people from ethnic backgrounds actually in prison—some of the highest figures in Europe. They are all part of the non-devolved justice system, and they're all part of the evidential base as to why the devolution of justice actually is necessary.
You referred again to the policing figure, et cetera. Well, you've been in power since 2010; it's taken you 12 years to begin to repair the damage that has been done in terms of the massive cuts to policing that actually occurred.
With regard to the turning down of the planning application in respect of the women's centre in Swansea, of course, that is a matter for the Ministry of Justice to now consider how it intends to respond to that. But that, again, is a responsibility of the Ministry of Justice.

The Plaid Cymru spokesperson now, Llyr Gruffydd.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. I'm glad, Counsel General, that you've referred to the recent publication, The Welsh Criminal Justice System: On the Jagged Edge, by Dr Rob Jones and Professor Richard Wyn Jones, and I would heartily recommend it as a good read to the Conservative spokesperson—it might even help open his eyes somewhat to the reality of the situation. Because you're absolutely right in saying that—. It really outlines how the Welsh criminal justice system is unique, and, while our nation has its own devolved Government and Parliament, of course, there is no Welsh equivalent of the Scottish or Northern Irish justice systems. Rather, the writ of England and Wales criminal justice institutions continues to run. Yet the extensive responsibilities of Wales's devolved institutions ensure that they necessarily play a significant role in criminal justice, and, as a result, the Welsh criminal justice system operates across this jagged edge of devolved and reserved powers of responsibilities.
So, what discussions, then, have you had to ensure that we create a Welsh justice system, to improve what are some of the worst criminal justice outcomes in the whole of western Europe? And also, will you discuss with your Labour colleagues in London to ensure that any potential future UK Labour Government will actually devolve justice, the police and prisons to Wales?

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for the question and thank you for the comments. I certainly agree with you that the content of the publication from Cardiff University contains some really significant information within it. And of course, it raises that point: one of our main concerns—I meant to mention this with the last question—is the disaggregation of data. We do need that evidence base, we do need that data. Unless we actually have that data disaggregated so we know how it applies to Wales, it becomes very difficult to actually determine policy, to evaluate precisely what is happening, why it is happening, and how we actually change it. That is why we published in May 'Delivering Justice for Wales', and we've referred to that, and it's been mentioned consistently.
I've been raising these issues now in all the discussions that I've had with counterparts at UK Government level, and we've done it in a number of ways. Firstly, we will continue working, we will continue co-operating in all areas where we can work collectively to improve the justice system. There are a number of projects like that that are under way. Secondly, we'll identify additional projects that we can work with. There are some very interesting ones that are under way in terms of the establishment of a domestic abuse law centre up in north Wales; we're awaiting a decision on funding and we're hopeful that will happen. We might look at that in terms of a model as part of a broader policy in respect of developing law centres and access to justice.
But also, what we'll also do is actually start preparing for the delivery of justice, particularly in those areas where the connectivity between devolved responsibilities is so blatant. I would say there is no rational argument for not devolving justice in the area of probation and in the area of youth justice. Even if we were to start there. And, of course, the debate over justice policy and these issues is partly about getting it out of a mindset that this is somehow about who controls something, as opposed to how you can actually deliver justice better. And my view, and the reason I work so closely with the Minister for Social Justice, and vice versa, on these, is that a key part of the justice system is social justice, and the combining of those two makes it absolutely essential that, certainly in those areas, there is devolution of justice, and in the longer term, there's an end to the dysfunction of the very centralised judicial system for England and Wales, which also has significant adverse impacts in the way it is delivered in England as well.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you for that. You've listed engagement with the UK Government. I'm still waiting for something in relation to your own UK Labour Party; maybe you could expand a little bit in a moment.
I wanted to ask you about something else as well, because the UK Government has announced that its Bill of Rights Bill is to return to the Westminster Parliament in the coming weeks. And we know that that will dismantle the Human Rights Act 1998 that made human rights part of domestic law available to everyone in the UK. So, would the Counsel General agree that human rights are actually one of the cornerstones of devolution, and that the Welsh Government has to act to protect human rights in Wales by ensuring, for example, that we get a human rights Bill for Wales?

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, firstly, you are absolutely right in terms of the bill of rights, and, of course, 10 December is Human Rights Day, and I hope there will be a substantial debate in this Chamber. At one stage, it looked as though there might be a debate on Human Rights Day that didn't need to have reference to the bill of rights. We were told it was shelved. Unfortunately, one of the main instigators of it has returned, and it appears it is back on the agenda again.
It is within the portfolio of Lord Bellamy, who I will be meeting with in Cardiff in December. So, there'll be an opportunity to discuss there. What we don't know is precisely what the format of this Bill might be, whether it's going to be a complete return of the existing Bill. Now, that seems to me to be something that's very difficult, since once it was shelved, there were so many UK Government Ministers and Members of Parliament who basically were saying, 'Well, it's been shelved, the thing is an absolute mess, so it can't go on as it is; that's why we've shelved it.' Well, it's now coming back and they've obviously got to do something to resolve the fact that it is, in its current form, an absolute mess.
But it is something that is essentially an undermining of human rights. It actually takes away the rights from individuals. So much for the Brexit argument of taking back control; it actually disempowers individual citizens within the UK.
In terms of a Welsh Bill, and what we can do within Wales, that is something that we're looking at very, very closely. What the options might be as to how we might further strengthen the commitment to human rights that we have, either within our legislation, within our policy, and whether that means by means of a legislative format or whatever, I don't know. But it is a matter that's being discussed at the human rights advisory group that has been set up, in conjunction with the Minister for Social Justice, which I chaired the other day. So, this is very much on the radar and I hope this debate continues and we keep monitoring what is happening.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

The Hillsborough Disaster

Jack Sargeant AC: 4. What discussions has the Counsel General had with other law officers regarding ensuring justice for the 97 victims of the Hillsborough disaster? OQ58662

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for the question. I wrote to the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice about the considerable demand for a Hillsborough law in August of this year, and have previously raised the matter in meetings and correspondence with UK Government Ministers.

Jack Sargeant AC: I thank the Counsel General for that answer. And can I thank him for his continued work with me about promoting the need for a Hillsborough law? Counsel General, you will be aware that the next Prime Minister, Sir Keir Starmer, used the opening of his conference speech in Liverpool to commit his future Labour Government to implementing a Hillsborough law. This is not only a bold move, but it is the right move. It is too hard for people in this country without significant means to access the justice they deserve. Will you commit this Welsh Labour Government to supporting Sir Keir in his plans for a Hillsborough law, and his calls also for a general election to make that happen?

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for the supplementary question. And I congratulate you for the way in which you have continued to pursue this and to pursue some of the other significant miscarriage of justice issues. I think it's very important that we debate them and we consider them on this floor. I think, first of all, the thing to say is that I think there have been a number of missed opportunities to actually discuss on an inter-ministerial level, inter-governmental level, the issue of Hillsborough and other similar issues. The inter-ministerial group on justice has not yet been established, but I am hopeful that it will be very, very soon. In terms of Welsh Government, I can confirm, and say again for the record, that we support the calls for the introduction of a Hillsborough law, which would not only place a duty of candour on public servants, but also put bereaved families on a more equal footing to public bodies by ensuring publicly funded legal representation is available.I'm disappointed also that the Public Advocate (No. 2) Bill is unlikely to progress. So, we are maintaining pressure on the UK Government over this issue and about some of the other miscarriages of justice that have occurred and that you have raised in the past: the Post Office Horizon scandal and, indeed, the issue of a pardon for wrongly convicted miners during the 1984-85 strike.
But, on the summary points you raise, I completely agree with you about the statement from Keir Starmer. I was pleased to see the announcement at the Labour Party conference in Liverpool that a future UK Labour Government, which hopefully won't be too far away, will introduce a Hillsborough law. I also agree with the Member that we should have a UK general election as soon as possible so the public have an opportunity to elect that Labour Government.

The Transport Strikes (Minimum Service Levels) Bill

Alun Davies AC: 5. What discussions has the Counsel General had with other law officers regarding the impact of the Transport Strikes (Minimum Service Levels) Bill on the devolution settlement? OQ58668

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for the question. The Bill and its impacts in Wales are being urgently assessed by my officials. I am extremely concerned, again, by the lack of engagement on this Bill before introduction, and the limited information available on its content.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to the Counsel General for that response. It is, of course, a forced labour Bill. It takes away freedoms and it takes away rights from people, and acts in a way that is incompatible, I would argue, with our expectations and our values in a free and open and democratic society. It is also at odds with the values that we, on this side of the Chamber, have certainly held dear throughout the period of devolved Government. The Welsh Government's social partnership Bill, which is being delivered by our colleague the Deputy Minister is something that paints a very different vision of the future for industrial relations, and for enhancing people's rights and underpinning people's freedoms. But it is, of course, a matter of great concern that the Welsh Government has again been unsighted on another piece of UK legislation. It may be useful, Counsel General, if you could publish a list of all the engagements between the United Kingdom Government and the Welsh Government, at ministerial and official level, for us to understand exactly what engagement has taken place in the development of this piece of pernicious legislation.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for the supplementary question. Of course, we will be monitoring very carefully what happens. I understand the Second Reading has been delayed. I had been reading through the Bill. I actually have a copy of it here. It is quite difficult to see how exactly it might work. Maybe that's why it is slowing down in the process. Another ill-thought-out, ideologically driven piece of legislation. It has, as I said, got very little information on it. It does, of course, then create a base for further and a lot of powers being transferred into the secondary legislation process. That further limits our ability to assess and scrutinise the Bill's rights.
As a matter of principle, we just do not think the Government should work to—. Well, our approach is one of social partnership—one of positive and progressive engagement. We believe that governments should work to resolve industrial disputes collaboratively, rather than seeking to impose their will through the reduction of workers' rights. As a former trade union lawyer for 30 years of my life, imposing tighter restrictions on trade unions is highly regressive, and the Bill is just another unwarranted attack on the rights of workers to take legitimate industrial action. I think you have to see this legislation within other regressive legislation that seeks to restrict civil liberties and freedoms that we've come to enjoy.
So, we will be making it very clear to the UK Government that we oppose the Bill in the strongest of terms and that officials are working to find out more about the substance and timings of the Bill, and we will be expressing our full range of concerns to the Department for Transport.

A Gender Quota for the 2026 Welsh Parliament Election

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: 6. Will the Counsel General clarify what legal advice the Welsh Government has sought in relation to introducing a gender quota for the 2026 Welsh Parliament election? OQ58657

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for the question. The special purpose committeereported on 30 May and made 31 recommendations, including one relating to the introduction of gender quotas. At present, officials are developing policy for legislation in relation to those recommendations.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you. There are clearly serious legal and constitutional questions as to whether the Welsh Government indeed has any such power to introduce radical changes to our electoral laws. Attempting to enforce these quotas at a national level on all parties is completely without precedent in our democracy. It also raises the question of those who do not identify as either male or female and thus would not place themselves in either category. This actually demonstrates the issue with trying to select elected members on the basis of arbitrary—I can never say this word—arbitrary characteristics, where particular groups or cross-sections of society will always feel excluded in some way. That is why, in this country, we have always thrived on the uniting principle of meritocracy—basically meaning the best person gets the job. I find personally, as a woman of 28 years—

Can you ask the question, please, Janet?

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I am doing. As a woman in politics for over the last 28 years elected, I find this insulting, what you propose going forward. Will the Counsel General make public any legal advice concerning the power of the Welsh Government to make this unprecedented intervention in the way in which politicians in Wales are elected? Diolch.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for the supplementary question. Perhaps I'll deal with the point you raised when you said the best person gets the job. You might want to explain to me why it is, then, that only 18 per cent of the Tory membership in this Senedd is female. I'm not sure what conclusions we should draw from that. I'll leave that there, because the special purposes committee recommendation 11 was that the Senedd should be elected—

Can the backbenchers please stop to talking with one another so I can hear the answers from the Counsel General?

Mick Antoniw AC: Recommendation 11 was that the Senedd should be elected with statutory gender quotas. Recommendation 17 of the report was that the Welsh Government take appropriate steps to ensure that our recommendations on Senedd reform for 2026 are not put at undue risk of a Supreme Court referral. So, effectively, officials have been undertaking work to develop a detailed policy aimed at giving effect to recommendation 11, whilst also being mindful of recommendation 17. Now, the purpose of the recommendations that were made by the special purpose committee, and the overarching aim in introducing gender quotas is to make provision, the aim of which is to ensure that elected Members of the Senedd broadly mirror the gender diversity of the Welsh population. In my position as law officer and as Counsel General, I'll be mindful of the need to ensure that the Senedd reform legislation as a whole is going to be clear, is going to be robust and that it will be within competence.

Question 7 [OQ58644] is withdrawn. Question 8, Alun Davies.

The Northern Ireland Protocol Bill

Alun Davies AC: 8. What discussions has the Counsel General had with other law officers in the UK about the impact of the Northern Ireland Protocol Bill on the UK constitution? OQ58670

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you. We've had no engagement from the UK Government before the Bill was introduced. We have some serious concerns about it, including the very broad powers it gives to Ministers of the Crown and its potential implications for the devolution settlement. We are recommending that the Senedd withhold consent for the Bill.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to the Counsel General for that. I'm grateful to hear his final point there. This is a rotten and grubby piece of legislation that has, by its introduction, tarnished the reputation of the United Kingdom in councils across the world. It has damaged our relationship with the EU and has demonstrated that the UK Government itself is prepared to break international law and agreements freely entered into having deceived the unionist population of Northern Ireland. It really is a squalid piece of legislation and one of the most dishonourable pieces of legislation that I've seen in front of any legislature at any time. It is important, Counsel General, that, as a legislature and as a Welsh Government, this place stands up for good governance, stands up for international law and stands up for the values of democracy where freely entered-into agreements are delivered by all parties. Can the Welsh Government reassure this Chamber this afternoon that it will continue to argue that this piece of legislation not only damages the UK externally and internationally, but undermines the basis of the UK constitution internally as well?

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for that supplementary. I think I agree with all the points that you've made. In the summer, I attended a British-Irish Association conference, and, at that, I made the point that I just think it is fundamentally wrong to try and tackle what is a significant political problem by means of legislation. You cannot legislate to solve those types of problems. The Bill is ill-judged and it's damaging to the UK's international reputation. It is the UK Government going back on an international obligation that it designed and signed early in 2020 as part of the withdrawal agreement. And, if it's enacted and implemented, it will result in a significant breach, in my view, a likely breach, of international law, which does still further damage.
There are a number of reasons why legislative consent cannot be given. There will, of course, be a full debate in this Senedd on the legislative consent motion. But one of the key things for me is this: I cannot see how, with our intrinsic commitment to international law, and to human rights and so on, in all that we do, that we could recommend legislative support for legislation that so blatantly potentially drives a coach and horses through the very concept of the rule of law and international law. On top of that, of course, it gives enormous Henry VIII powers to the Government. So, the Welsh Government's position is not to give consent. Obviously, it is a matter for this Senedd to determine that issue of consent; it is not a matter for the Government, but, during that process, Welsh Government will make its position very, very clear.

The Proposed Statute Law (Repeals) (Wales) Bill

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: 9. Will the Counsel General outline how the proposed statute law (repeals) (Wales) Bill will help improve the accessibility of Welsh law? OQ58656

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you. The Bill will declutter the statute book by removing provisions that are obsolete, spent, no longer of practical utility or effect or have no realistic chance of ever being commenced. This will make it easier and quicker for legal practitioners and others to find the information that they seek.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you. Announcing the consultation on the statue law (repeals) (Wales) Bill, you did advise that the measure would tackle the
'disorganised state of our vast and sprawling statute book.'
I acknowledge that provisions can fall out of use or are never commenced. However, I am concerned that this work is going to contribute to the delay we are experiencing in the implementation of new Welsh law. The clean air Act is late; the Minister for Climate Change is refusing to legislate to replicate sections 116 to 125 of the UK Building Safety Act 2022; we've still not established an environmental governance body; and the Bill comes at a time when the focus of the Welsh Government should be on matters of greater importance, such as the cost-of-living crisis facing people across Wales.
Whilst I appreciate that you are only now consulting on the Bill, do you agree with me that the priority should now be on focusing Welsh resources on the creation of new Welsh laws that our society and our country desperately need?

Mick Antoniw AC: I thank you for some of those comments, and I certainly agree with you about the importance of focusing on the cost-of-living crisis; of course, that is the very reason why we actually think that the retained EU law Bill should, actually, be shelved or completely disregarded. But, in terms of the responsibilities we have as a Senedd and as a Welsh Government, the purpose of the consultation is, really, to fulfil our ongoing obligation to maintain a Wales statute book. This is, essentially, a housekeeping exercise to remove unnecessary provisions. I don't believe that this will impact on all of the other important legislation that is there, and I think it's a mistake to confuse it within that, because it is not reforming law or changing law. What it is actually doing is a tidying-up exercise of the statute book.
It covers a number of areas, from rural development boards, enterprise zones, recorded public rights of way, Welsh Development Agency and so on and so forth. All Parliaments have a responsibility to do this; all Parliaments, by and large, do do it, to one degree or another. I think we're at a stage where the issue of access to law is really important to us. As we develop Welsh law, it's very important that our law is put into good shape and we exercise best practice. One of the reasons we are introducing, for example, the consolidation Bill on the historic environment, and we'll be doing one in planning, is because there are long-term benefits to us doing so; there are long-term benefits to citizens, practitioners, civic organisations and other bodies to actually having the law in a state that is fit for purpose. So, we will continue with this at an appropriate stage; legislation will be tabled.
If I can just make the point, because I know your comments were well intentioned, that it is equally important, as a Parliament, in terms of our legislative programme, that we also are monitoring the overall quality and state of our legislation, and that where opportunities arise to tidy that up to make it more effective and efficient, then we have an obligation to do so. This is one of my specific responsibilities that I'm carrying through and that I report on each year to the Senedd.

The Data Protection and Digital Information Bill

Sarah Murphy AS: 10. What assessment has the Counsel General made of the legal implications for Wales of the UK Government's Data Protection and Digital Information Bill? OQ58655

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you. Before the Bill was withdrawn from the Second Reading in the House of Commons, my officials assessed its impact on Wales and identified provisions requiring the Senedd’s consent. Any forthcoming data protection reforms by the UK Government will be similarly assessed.

Sarah Murphy AS: Diolch, Counsel General; thank you for your response on that and for that reassurance. As we now know, the UK Government has said that they are pausing their data reform Bill, but they are continuing to express their plans to scrap the general data protection regulation. Under GDPR, there is a legal requirement for consent to collect and share data; there is also an obligation for companies to delete any personal data when requested.
In the last few weeks the UK Government has gone further than that and released a statement to say that they are working on a new data adequacy agreement with the US that would allow our personal data to be transferred freely, removing the protections currently in place to secure our data from being used by private companies without our knowledge or consent. This means that they could sell our NHS data. This means that it will impact our Agriculture (Wales) Bill that's coming up, because Welsh Government will be collecting that data, and we won't be able to protect it because it will be under UK legislation that impacts us. It means that the biometric data that is being collected on children in schools will be able to be sold. And I have to say, this is all about trade agreements—this is all about trade agreements. So the recent right-wing experiments of the UK Tory Government do not leave me with hope that they will protect citizen data. What can we do? What talks are you having with them? Thank you, Counsel General.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for raising what is a really important issue that is not often commented on. I think this is the first specific question I've had on this, and it's very important that it has been raised. What I can say generally is that when issues in terms of data collation have arisen, I know that the Welsh Government Ministers have always raised the issue in terms of the protection of that and avoiding the misuse of that. I know that has happened within the health sector, and I see my colleague Eluned Morgan here, who I know took major steps ensuring that NHS data could only be used for specific objectives of medical benefit et cetera, for NHS purposes, and not be used in other ways where it can be sold and disseminated and used for any other corporate or commercial activities. That applies in terms of other legislation that may arise.
So, we will continue to seek to work with UK Government departments to gain information and consider the potential issues arising from any proposals to reform data protection law. We will strongly oppose any reforms that undermine an individual's right to protection of their personal data and their privacy. We do recognise also that the potential loss of EU adequacy is a major threat to Welsh exporting businesses, whose main overseas market continues to be the European Union. So, we will oppose any reform that marks a significant departure from the principles of the EU GDPR on the basis that this is likely to jeopardise the UK's chances in terms of having its EU adequacy status withdrawn.

And finally, question 11, Joyce Watson.

Equal Opportunities

Joyce Watson AC: 11. How does the Counsel General ensure that individuals have equal opportunities within the justice system in Wales? OQ58639

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for the question. We use every lever possible to tackle inequality in the justice system, even though it is not devolved. For example, we worked with partner organisations on the anti-racism action plan for the criminal justice system in Wales that was launched this September and that complements our own anti-racist Wales action plan.

Joyce Watson AC: Thank you for that answer, Counsel General. I don't know whether you've had time or opportunity to read and reflect on the new report by Manchester university on racial bias in the judiciary. It found discrimination to be directed particularly towards black court users, from lawyers to witnesses to dependents, and backs up the finding of the 2017 Lammy report. Institutional racism is a very serious charge, but it does seem to fit the bill here. So, can you tell us what Wales is doing and what more we must do to overturn this endemic judicial prejudice?

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for that very important question. Yes, I'm aware of the Manchester report. I've started reading through it and it makes very, very grim reading indeed. It is something that I know the members of the judiciary are very concerned about, and I know that it is something where there are efforts to seek how to address it.
It is not an easy issue to address within a justice system that works in this particular structure and the way in which it operates in conjunction with the legal profession. It's certainly the case that everyone in contact with the justice system deserves an equal opportunity to access the support and the help they need when they are engaged with the justice system. I mentioned earlier, when we were talking about the Cardiff University publication on the criminal justice system, the high rates, almost one of the highest rates in Europe, of imprisonment of those from ethnic backgrounds as opposed to white backgrounds. When you see that data in conjunction with the Manchester report, et cetera, you cannot help but say that there is an institutionalised racism within our justice system.
One of the ways we seek to address this is by working with the criminal justice board for Wales partners, His Majesty's Prison Service, the courts service and policing in Wales to develop the criminal justice in Wales anti-racism action plan, which was published in September, and which the Minister for Social Justice has played such a major role in. This sets out our plan to tackle racism proactively, with a particular focus on staff diversity and training. But there is a long way to go. This also features as part of the evidential base, I believe, in terms of the need for the devolution of justice as well. That is something that is being monitored very closely and that we are raising in opportunities that we have with other law officers and with the Ministry of Justice.

Thank you, Counsel General.

3. Questions to the Senedd Commission

Item 3 is next, questions to the Senedd Commission. First is Jack Sargeant.

The White Ribbon Promise

Jack Sargeant AC: 1. How does the Commission encourage staff to make the White Ribbon promise? OQ58663

Joyce Watson AC: In the past, the Commission has supported the White Ribbon campaign by holding an annual event in the Seneddand by raising money through the sale of White Ribbons in the TŷHywel and Senedd shops, which you yourself, Jack, of course, requested. Since the pandemic, the Commission has been mindful of the increased risk of incidents of domestic abuse, as home working has been the norm, and has implemented and communicated increased measures to support those home workers. Ahead of White Ribbon Day in 2022, the Commission will highlight the resources available and encourage staff to make the White Ribbon promise through the Commission's health and well-being strategy pages. I, along with Jack and many other Members, do actively champion the White Ribbon campaign. I know that you took the mantle up from your father, and I was proud to work alongside him, too.

Jack Sargeant AC: Can I thank Joyce Watson for that answer and all the work she does as a Commissioner, but also in a personal capacity as well? I know you are just as passionate as I am about the White Ribbon campaign. It is my role as an ambassador of the campaign to promote to never use, excuse or remain silent about male violence against women. We've heard already from Joyce Watson exactly what the Senedd staff will do to encourage all staff members, particularly men, to make the promise. So, will you join me today in putting that plea out to all staff across the Senedd that, when they do make the promise, they mean it?

Joyce Watson AC: I think that last point you made is a hugely important one. It's one thing making a pledge, it's another thing meaning it. But there are two sides, of course, to the White Ribbon, and one is all the work that is done around the White Ribbon, but the White Ribbon is about attempts to diminish the prevalence of violence against women and children. So, on the one side, we will raise awareness; on the other side, we have to protect people.
Within the home working support pages, the Commission have supplemented existing policies with further guidance for those who experience abuse within that home environment, and the Commission has provided a risk-assessed safe place to work away from home for Commission staff, if they should require it. The domestic abuse policy has been revised and places greater responsibility on all staff to report concerns for a colleague. It also reflects the current change of legislation that finally recognises that children are victims of domestic abuse and experience significant harm. That links to the Commission's newly revised safeguarding children policy. The Commission's support also includes provision of a new domestic abuse loan, because very often it is the case that people leave with absolutely nothing. Commission officials have recently—this October—discussed activities to support victims of domestic abuse with colleague public sector organisations—Welsh Government sponsored bodies that collaborate together.

The Senedd Canteen

Jenny Rathbone AC: 2. What essential criteria other than cost did the Commission use to select the new Senedd canteen contractor? OQ58658

The qualitative evaluation criteria used for the retender of the catering services included a range of areas to meet the objectives and performance requirements of the Senedd for the service. Cost and quality evaluation was split 30:70—30 per cent for cost and 70 per cent for quality evaluation.
Examples of the key qualitative evaluation criteria included, for example, how the service would support our social and environmental and sustainability objectives, innovations for the service, and staff development and recruitment. The provision of menus and recipes for the service, including hospitality services, was also evaluated within the 70 per cent for quality.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you very much for that answer. I'm glad to hear that only 30 per cent of the criteria was cost. But I think one of the issues—I mean, there are several issues. One is, of course, that the cost of food has increased, and therefore it's very difficult to be comparing the previous contractor with the current contractor in the rapidly rising inflation of food. But the previous canteen contractor, Chartwells, had a Food for Life accreditation from the Soil Association, and this ensured that the food was quality assured i.e. what it said on the tin was actually what was being delivered. Does the new contractor have this, and if not, how can we know that what we're eating is what it claims to be? In light of the greenwash actions of many commercial operators, do you agree with me that, potentially, this risks the reputation of the Senedd and accusations of, 'Do what we say, not what we do'?

I can't answer the specific in that case; I don't have the information to hand in terms of that particular accreditation, but I'm more than willing to look at it. It's an important accreditation by the Soil Association. I'm willing to find out whether that is the case with the new contractor, and I'll write to you with that confirmation or otherwise. And if it is 'otherwise', then I will look into why it was the case that this current contractor was chosen in light of that and whether there are any other aspects of the current contractor's criteria that meet what was undertaken by the previous contractor, or even exceeding that. So, I'll do some digging, if you don't mind—no pun intended—on Soil Association accreditation there with that. I'll do some digging on this and I'll make sure that the Senedd is informed on the actual specific accreditation that you've raised, and it's an important area for me to investigate.

Mike Hedges AC: I actually believe in the direct provision of services and I'm opposed to the contracting out of public service to private contractors. Did the Commission consider bringing the contract in-house, and if they did, why did they reject doing so?

Yes, we've investigated a number of times over the number of contractors that we do contract out, whether in-house direct provision is preferable, both in terms of quality and cost. To date, it hasn't proved to be so; I can write to the Member with any specific analysis that was done on this particular contract. He'll have to excuse me that I can't recall it at this point, but I'm happy to provide that evidence. But I can give you the confirmation that we regularly review the issue of direct provision. Like you, instinctively I support direct provision of services. We've seen it actually work to our benefit, of course, when we took in-house, as a Commission, the ICT services, and we saw that especially during the pandemic, how that worked in our favour. But I will confirm some of these points to you when that was last reviewed.

Mike Hedges AC: Thank you.

Provision of ICT for Members in the Chamber

Alun Davies AC: 3. Will the Commission provide an update on the provision of ICT for Members in the Chamber? OQ58669

The use of IT by Members has transformed since the beginning of the pandemic. The Commissionhas continued to drive the improvements needed to accommodate different working practices. The introduction of Zoom and a web-based voting app, alongside improvements to audiovisual broadcasting and interpretation technologies, allow Members to effectively participate in Plenary, irrespective of whether they are physically present in the Chamber or choose to attend remotely.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to the Presiding Officer for that. Presiding Officer, I want you to rip out these grotesque computers that we have placed in front of us. They are completely inappropriate for a debating Chamber; they were designed at a time before we had iPads and before we had the ability to communicate in the way that we can. It's a twentieth-century response to a need that doesn't exist in the twenty-first century. This should be a debating Chamber where we discuss what matters to the people of Wales, and where we listen to each other, no matter what's being said, and not simply carry on answering e-mails, which we could do in any other way, at any other time. This place has to be the cockpit of the nation, the fulcrum of our public debate, and not a call centre.

Well, I don't agree with the florid language used by the Member, but I can see that a time will come when these exact static computers that we currently have in front of us will no longer be useful. I've been looking around me as you were asking your question. Of the three Members closest to me, I can see that one is looking at the papers in front of him, one is looking at the computer screen in front of her, and another is looking at the phone that he has. I'm also a mobile phone user within this Chamber. So, Members make use of various media in looking at the work in front of them, contacting constituents even when they're here, or participating in proceedings. My view is that it doesn't matter what computer you have in front of you, or if you don't have a computer at all; the debate is interesting and lively when Members contribute in a lively and interesting way, and that draws the attention of fellow Members, just like your question has just sent virtually everyone around us to look up from their computer screens very quickly, because Alun Davies was saying something interesting in a contentious way. So, I would say that it's not the fault of the computers; let the Members make the discussion within this Chamber interesting and challenging, and the equipment will follow that, and they will be here in the twenty-first century, just as my phone is in front of me now.

The Cost-of-living Crisis

Peter Fox AS: 4. What steps is the Commission taking to support staff members during the current cost-of-living crisis? OQ58645

The Commission is committed to the well-being of its staff, and we are acutely aware that the current cost-of-living crisis will be a very real concern for many. We are also aware that it will be a deeply personal matter for some, and that they may not feel comfortable sharing that with their employer. For those reasons, we have pulled together a series of financial and practical resources that can be accessed easily and confidentially through our dedicated intranet pages. These range from a series of salary sacrifice schemes to confidential helplines and signposts for financial and mental well-being, practical suggestions also for reducing costs, and, for those who need it, salary advances that are interest-free. Communications about these are regularly published with our staff.

Peter Fox AS: Thank you, Llywydd, for that response. It's very helpful. As we know, the cost-of-living crisis is affecting many people and families across Wales, and people are finding it tough. Whilst those from more disadvantaged backgrounds are being disproportionately affected, people who are generally seen as 'just about managing' in more normal circumstances are finding themselves in real difficulties. In asking the question, I realise that many employed by the Senedd or those who work as support staff are comparatively better paid than in other sectors, but that doesn't mean that they're not finding things really difficult, as you've acknowledged. It's important, then, that, as a responsible employer, the Senedd does everything it can do to support its employees and their families, and the support on offer needs to be equitable—that is, available and accessible to both Commission staff and Member support staff.
Llywydd, what discussions are you having with colleagues about the ways in which the Senedd can provide support and advice to staff members who may be facing difficulties? I know that you've already alluded to some of that. Perhaps we could use the intranet pages to provide more of a one-stop-shop facility. And I just wondered if there had been any working with the remuneration board to see what further things could be done to help staff members in these difficult times.

Well, yes, as you've outlined in your supplementary as well as the answer I gave, these are real and pressing issues for members of staff, people who work on our estate during these months, and there is worry, of course, as to what the future will hold for some. As I hope I emphasised in my answer, we are aware of this; we have discussed it as a Commission in our most recent meeting on Monday, and we are aware of the need to ensure that all staff, on an equitable basis, are able to access information and support and use our intranet pages in particular to look at that, and I'd urge all staff to make sure that they make themselves regularly aware of any support that is available.
I know that the remuneration board as well are aware of the implications of the cost-of-living crisis for support staff of Members and have provided some support already in terms of allowance for members of staff who may be working at home and who have increased costs due to that, and I'm sure that the remuneration board are actively seeking any further information that they can glean as to where the pressures exactly exist and will respond and consider those requests accordingly.

Thank you, Llywydd and Joyce Watson.

4. Topical Questions

Item 4 this afternoon is topical questions. We have one topical question, and I call on Russell George to ask that question.

A Potential Strike by Nurses

Russell George AC: 1. Will the Minister make a statement on a potential strike by nurses? TQ674

Eluned Morgan AC: I've just heard that the required turnout threshold has been reached for the Royal College of Nursing members balloted in all NHS employer organisations in Wales, with the exception of Aneurin Bevan health board, and in each of these, a simple majority mandate for strike action has been achieved. So, just to be clear, in Wales, RCN member nurses have voted for strike action everywhere with the exception of the Aneurin Bevan health board.
As a Welsh Government, we recognise why so many nurses have voted the way that they have, due, in no doubt, to the Tory-inflicted cost-of-living crisis, and also, the increased work pressures that many nurses are facing. And can I be clear that we agree that nurses should be fairly rewarded for their important work, but there are limits as to how far we can go to address these concerns in Wales without additional funding from the Conservative Government at the UK level?

Russell George AC: Thank you, Minister, for your response. We know that, in the last half an hour, as you've said, six health boards across Wales out of the seven have responded to the result of the RCN strike ballot, and strikes will take place in those health board areas.
I have to say, Minister, I'm disappointed by your response, trying to deflect away from your responsibility. This is a Labour-run NHS in Wales, this is your responsibility, and it's for you to solve this problem. And I'm disappointed by your answer this afternoon. We know that, in Wales, a fifth of the population are waiting on an NHS waiting list, 60,000 of those waiting for over two years, the longest ambulance red-calls responses on record, and the worst accident and emergency waiting times in Britain. So, the last thing that we need in Wales, and the people of Wales need, is for nurses to be striking. Now, I appreciate that solving this problem is difficult. I appreciate that—it is not easy. But it is your dispute to solve, Minister. It is the responsibility of this Labour Government here. I hope that every opportunity has been taken, every opportunity possible has been taken, to avoid getting to this point and stopping strike action. So, can I therefore ask you, Minister: can you tell me how many times you have met with the Royal College of Nursing to negotiate the proposed pay rise; what approach are you going to adopt to bring any strike action to a close; what effect do you believe that the strike action will have on those long waiting times for emergency and elective treatment, which I've just outlined; and, finally, what will the cost be, if any, in agency nurses to cover any striking action?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. Can I just be absolutely clear that, without additional funding from the UK Tory Government, it will be impossible, within the current health and social care budget, to provide the kind of inflation pay rise for the NHS without facing—

Please allow the Minister to answer so we can all hear.

Eluned Morgan AC: —some extremely difficult cuts that would have to be made elsewhere in the health budget. And that is an extremely difficult—. If he wants to give me some ideas of exactly where he thinks we should cut to pay for this, I'm all ears.
Now, I want to make clear that, in Wales, we work in social partnership. I meet very regularly with the RCN. We have a conversation, which is ongoing. We of course will continue, now we know the results of the ballot, to discuss what contingency planning we will need to put in place. We will not be using agency nursing to cover any shortfalls, because we respect the right to strike in Wales, and we understand that the nurses have not taken this action lightly and we appreciate the strength of feeling amongst members. I think this is the first statutory ballot on industrial action across the UK in the 106-year history of the Royal College of Nursing. Can I make it clear also that we would expect and we will continue to have conversations with the Royal College of Nursing in terms of the derogations that would happen at the time of the strike? In other words, we would expect emergency and cancer care to continue, for example, and we will be having those conversations in the forthcoming weeks.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Can I first of all register my support for all RCN members and the way they voted? Nobody wants to see industrial action taking place, and that includes, more than everyone, the nurses themselves. But the fact that this ballot took place in the first place tells us all we need to know about how nurses feel. Now, in driving a decade and more of public service cuts and real-time cuts to nurses' pay, the UK Government created a crisis. We can recruit into nursing, because, thankfully, we have enough people who care, but we can't hold on to nurses, because they feel undervalued. And whilst that's not all about financial rewards—we're still waiting for the extension of section 25B of the safe staffing levels legislation, for example—we simply have to show, through nurses' pay packets, that they really are valued. So, the UK Conservative Government should not have created this crisis; they should have undone the damage they themselves caused. And the Labour Welsh Government should have taken the opportunity, if not when the sun was shining—because it hasn't shone for some time—but at least before it disappeared behind the darkest of dark economic clouds we now face, to address the cuts in pay that have built up over time, and those other elements that have contributed to the unsustainabilityof nursing in Wales.
Now, pay, as I say, is just the tip of the iceberg—there are so many issues that need to be addressed—but nurses have taken a pay cut for the last 10 years. I understand that the Minister is still refusing to meet and negotiate pay with the RCN, but, I'm sorry, the need to negotiate has to be non-negotiable. Now, if Scotland can take the first step to prioritising their nurses by increasing their pay there by 7 per cent, why can't we? I agree entirely with the Minister that the Conservatives in UK Government have to take the blame for driving those cuts in public services, but there are actions that Labour can take here in Wales. When are we going to take the action that the Scottish Government have taken in Scotland?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. Can I be clear that we have been recruiting to the workforce in Wales, in terms of nurses, for several years? We've seen a 69 per cent increase in the number of nurse training places in Wales since 2016. The challenge, as you mentioned, is retention, and we understand that. These nurses have been under incredible pressure, in particular during COVID. We understand that that pressure has been unrelenting, and we also understand that they're heading into a very difficult winter. Those conversations will continue.
We have conversations regularly with the Royal College of Nursing, but I've got to be absolutely clear that there is no money left in the NHS budget. So, if we're going to find this money, we would have to cut it from the services that we give to the public in Wales, and, as you've all pointed out, there are many people waiting for operations in Wales as we speak. So, we're going to have to make some pretty tough choices here.
I know that Plaid Cymru, for example, are very keen for us to honour the commitment to pay the real living wage to care workers. Again, we'll have to find that money from somewhere else. So, let's be absolutely clear that taking political decisions is about determining what your political priorities are. It's very, very difficult when you have a limited funding pot that has been brought about and is going to get substantially worse because of the chaos the Tory Government has inflicted on us in recent weeks.

Gareth Davies AS: What we need to see is the Welsh Government taking responsibility for nurses' pay and stop passing the buck onto Westminster whenever the going gets tough. You slice the pie at the end of the day, Minister, and you have full control over this matter. The Scottish Government have put forward a pay offer that will see nurses in the country given an uplift of £2,205, with the health Secretary, Humza Yousaf, saying that the new deal for the 2022-23 pay cycle would reflect the hard work of NHS staff and
'will go a long way to help them through the cost of living crisis.'
Now, I don't agree with the political make-up of the Scottish Government, but at least what they have shown is some guts and some leadership in dealing with nurses' pay, which has prevented strike action by the RCN up in Scotland. Are you happy to stand here this afternoon as a Labour Minister, in the shadow of Nye Bevan, and preside over the first nursing strike this country has ever seen, all because this Government can't get its act together? We are heading into winter with all the associated pressures, and in a situation, for the first time ever, that our vital front-line NHS staff are likely to walk out. When are you going show some guts, take some responsibility and give our hard-working NHS workers the pay reward they deserve?
Russell George asked you in his question how many times you've met with the RCN, and you've refused to answer, health Minister. So, could you please answer that question on how many times you have met with the RCN? Thank you.

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, I won't be lectured by a Tory on how to deal with the NHS. I will not be lectured by a Tory. And the shadow of Nye Bevan—absolutely, I feel a real responsibility to make sure that we provide the best possible service for the people of Wales. And that does mean keeping our nursing friends and our colleagues safe in the NHS, and making sure that they are happy in their workplace. And we will continue to have those conversations.
As I say, I meet regularly with the RCN, at least quarterly—at least quarterly—and, on top of that, at other times.
But can I just give you a little bit of background to how we've come here today, because this pay award that is on the table at the moment is implementing in full the NHS pay review body recommendations? And as part of the pay review body process, various parties, including the Welsh Government, but also including trade unions, have the ability to submit evidence for their consideration, and then the independent pay review board submits their proposal. And what we've done is to take on their recommendations, which has been the story for many, many years. If we step out of that, then we're opening up a whole new world that we need to consider what happens if that happens. So, we're not in that place, and, as I say, it's going to be very, very difficult for us to find any additional funding.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Just a note to Gareth Davies—the pie has shrunk over the last 12 years, and that is why the whole of the public sector is struggling so badly in terms of its budgets, in terms of the resources it has to deliver the services. So, there is no more money, because the chances of the UK Government suddenly shaking this magic money tree and delivering us more money is absolutely infinitesimal. So, my question, Minister, is this: I appreciate that you've only just got this information, but what's really interesting about what you've just said is that Aneurin Bevan health board has not followed the other six health boards in voting for strike action, and I wondered if you've had any time to reflect on whether that is down to the fact that Aneurin Bevan is consistently sector-leading in the way it delivers services, and reshaping them to constantly being better able to meet people's needs, and whether this has enabled staff in Aneurin Bevan to not have such a stressful working existence, which has made them less likely to strike.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much, Jenny. Certainly, we're always keen to work in social partnership. Obviously, I haven't had a chance to digest what is happening in Aneurin Bevanand why they perhaps have taken a slightly different route. My understanding is that they didn't reach the threshold of the numbers of people to participate, but I haven't seen the exact breakdown, so I'll look forward to analysing those results and seeing what is going on there that's different from other areas. But, as I say, I am very keen to make sure that we continue the conversation with our trade union partners, and to make sure that, where we can, we can stand with the nurses, who certainly deserve a pay award.

And, finally, Joyce Watson.

Joyce Watson AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. First of all, I want to declare the fact that a close family member is a member of the RCN, before I speak on this. We all know that nurses are under huge pressure. We also all know that nurses were at the front line and instrumental at the time of the pandemic, and that others went outside every Thursday evening to clap their endeavours to try and save us from the worst excesses and death rates, whilst, at the same time, putting themselves forward on the front line. The pay award, as the Minister has said, was delivered and agreed by the pay review body, and has been paid in full, but the point here is that that was done before the double act—Truss and Kwarteng—crashed the economy, and has now put huge strain on families and public services. We can't get away from that, and I can hear the silence over there now; they're not trying to.
So, I think what needs to happen here—. And we've got a statement coming forward, but it's being leaked and drip fed to us that the Tories intend to cut public expenditure. They've made that perfectly clear, and they're drip feeding. Now, if you're going to cut public expenditure, included in that, and maybe the Tories here need a lesson, will be the NHS. That includes it. [Interruption.] It isn't beside it; that is public service, that is public expenditure. So, what I hope the Tories will do here, because they're clearly, like all of us here, exercised by the fact that we want to reward our nurses and all other staff who work to protect us and deliver our services, what I hope that they will do is write to the UK Government before that budget cuts the public expenditure even further, so that we can deliver what we know we want to deliver to the people who are delivering those services for us. And I look forward to having copies of those letters, delivered by e-mail or on my desk; they can take their choice in which way they do that. Thank you.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. The cost-of-living crisis, as Joyce has pointed out, is hitting everybody, but it's hitting nurses as well as other people, and it's really depressing to hear of nurses going to foodbanks and other places. That is, really, a very difficult situation. And what we have seen, as you pointed out, is a huge increase in energy costs, a huge increase in food costs, and now, as you pointed out, thanks to Truss and Kwarteng, what we've got are increases in mortgages, and that's what's really challenging people. All of those nurses who own homes are now going to have to dig deeper, as a result of the chaos that Truss inflicted on our economy. And—can I just be clear—it's not just about this year, as Joyce has pointed out, we are expecting substantial cuts next year. Now, even if the NHS stays at the same level as it is at the moment, we know that, with an ageing population and with digital advances and things, we should be improving the NHS by about 2 per cent a year. That is going to be incredibly difficult in future. But, on top of that, what we're seeing is an erosion of the amount of money that is available for us to spend on the NHS. So, I've given you this example before, but I'm going to give it to you again: I had—

Can I ask Members to be quiet, please? I'd like to hear the answer from the Minister, and Members are getting rather loud in their backbench heckling.

Eluned Morgan AC: I had £170 million to clear the backlog, and now I've had an additional bill for £207 million for the cost of energy. I've had a little bit of money to cover that from the UK Government, but nothing like what is needed. So, that means we have to find cuts from within the NHS. That is your doing. That is your doing, and you have not come to the rescue. Go and speak to your political masters up in London.

I thank the Minister.

5. 90-second Statements

Item 5, the 90-second statements. First of all, Mike Hedges.

Mike Hedges AC: Thank you very much. Tabernacle Chapel in Morriston. This year marks 150 years since the opening of the independent Tabernacle chapel in Morriston. Those watching Dechrau Canu Dechrau Canmol on Sunday would have seen the chapel full and would have seen the splendour both inside and out. It was designed by the architect John Humphrey and was built at a cost of £15,000 in 1872, which is equivalent to over £1 million today. It is a big chapel.

Mike Hedges AC: I don't know how to say it in Welsh, but it is a building that shows Morriston and is seen as the chapel of Morriston.

Mike Hedges AC: Previously, it was the home of the world-famous Morriston Orpheus choir, and it now regularly hosts concerts for the Morriston women's choir, the Morriston rugby club choir and the Tabernacle choir.
It was built to replace Libanus, because that had become too small for the number of regular attendees. The design was copied several times elsewhere in Wales. The pulpit is the focal point, and below it is the sedd fawr, or elders’ pew, for the deacons. The Welsh inscription above the organ reads 'Addolwch yr Arglwydd mewn perffaith sancteiddrwydd', or 'Worship the Lord in the beautyof holiness'.
Like any 150-year-old building, it is in need of constant repair. Swansea Council has recently been supporting the building, and has turned the vestry into a space available to the community. Like many chapels in Wales, it has an ageing and declining congregation. However, this is the landmark building in Morriston—psalm 96.
I have previously asked for the Tabernacle to be turned into a museum of religion in Wales. We cannot afford to lose this building.

Cefin Campbell MS: I'd like to take this opportunity to congratulate S4C, which has its headquarters in Carmarthen, on celebrating its fortieth birthday last week. The channel was established on 1 November 1982, and I'm sure that many of us will have fond memories of gathering around the television on that historic evening. I have some very fond memories of the launch.
Over the past few decades, the channel has created iconic programmes and characters that have stayed with generations of viewers: Superted, Sali Mali, C'mon Midffîld!, Cefn Gwlad, Pobol y Cwm, and of course memorable rugby and football matches.
The channel has developed not only to be an important part of the personal lives of so many of us, but its contribution to our journey towards becoming a confident, vibrant and inclusive nation has also been very notable indeed.
Whilst challenges remain, the channel has been remarkably successful in evolving as our viewing habits have changed so much. When S4C was launched, there were just four channels available, but now digital and various different platforms are available, with a choice of hundreds of different channels. But thanks to the innovation of staff and management, the channel has succeeded in reflecting twenty-first century Wales to viewers across the globe, ensuring that the Welsh language belongs to everyone in Wales.
In celebrating the 40 years, we must also recognise those who campaigned so valiantly for its establishment and who sacrificed so much for the benefit of the channel: Gwynfor Evans, the members of Cymdeithas yr Iaith, and ordinary people who understood the importance of having a Welsh language channel for the future of the Welsh language. Our debt to them is very great.
So, long live S4C and onwards to the next 40 years. Thank you.

Thank you very much to you both.

6. Debate on the Economy, Trade, and Rural Affairs Committee Report—'Raising the Bar: Securing the future of Hospitality, Tourism and Retail'

Item 6 is next, a debate on the Economy, Trade, and Rural Affairs Committee report, 'Raising the Bar: Securing the future of Hospitality, Tourism and Retail'. I call on the Chair of the committee, Paul Davies, to move the motion.

Motion NDM8120 Paul Davies
To propose that the Senedd:
Notes the report of the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee: 'Raising the Bar: Securing the future of Hospitality, Tourism and Retail' which was laid in the Table Office on 6 July 2022.

Motion moved.

Paul Davies AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I move the motion tabled in my name.
Dirprwy Lywydd, the hospitality, tourism and retail sectors are really at the heart of our nation. Their importance to supporting and enhancing life in Wales will be clear to everyone in this Chamber. Whether it's in the form of a bustling high street, a nice country pub, or a restaurant selling locally produced food cooked by expert chefs, the retail and hospitality industries are at the core of our communities across Wales.
As well as making use of and often enhancing our retail and hospitality offer, tourism allows us to show off the best of Wales to the rest of the world and provides 12 per cent of jobs in the Welsh workforce. In short, these industries are absolutely vital to foster, support and promote culture and the good life we all want to pursue.
The hospitality, tourism and retail industries were one of the first areas we identified to explore when we met to plan the new committee's priorities. Initially, we identified these sectors as we knew that they were facing big challenges as a result of the pandemic. Retail and hospitality were facing the huge challenge of recovery and adapting to the new post-pandemic world. Tourism was facing a slightly different challenge. The industry had also been hit hard by the pandemic, but was facing a situation of feast or famine. During the lockdown restrictions, tourism businesses, as with most retail and hospitality, had to close, but then as the UK started to reopen but international travel was still off the table, the industry found itself overwhelmed by demand.
We decided to look at these industries from two sides. One was the economic viability and sustainability of the sectors, particularly looking at COVID recovery and long-term viability. The second element we wanted to investigate was the workforce. This included improving the quality of jobs in the sector, addressing labour shortages, and looking generally at skills in the workforce. The committee is very grateful to those who gave evidence to our inquiry, in particular the anonymous individuals from across the country who completed our survey and gave us a real insight into what it's like working in these sectors.
Those participants told us about the long hours, low pay, job insecurity, lack of worker voice, and a lack of respect from customers and employers. However, they also told us that they enjoyed working in the hospitality, tourism and retail sectors as it allowed them to work in their local community, gave them flexibility in their lives, and provided them with a social environment. One participant told us that, and I quote,
'Working in retail means that I don’t have to move out of my community for work. I can live in the area I grew up in where my language is used.'
Another told us that, and I quote,
'The flexibility generally allows me to work around other aspects of my life. It also allows me to work in my local community. So many jobs require you to commute or move, but I can stay and work in the community that I grew up in.'

Paul Davies AC: And I think I speak for all on the committee when I say that it was quite moving to hear the participants speak so passionately about working in their local communities and where they grew up. Clearly, there is a great sense of pride in working in Wales's vibrant visitor economy, and that is why action is needed now to ensure that working in these sectors can offer secure and fulfilling careers for the future.
Our report contains 18 recommendations across four broad areas: business support, the retail strategy, the visitor economy and labour market challenges. I'm pleased that all recommendations have been accepted either in full or in principle by the Welsh Government, and so I welcome the Minister's commitment to better supporting these sectors.
The report first considers business support and how the sector can be better supported post pandemic. Representatives from all three sectors made it clear that they believed the Welsh Government provided a comprehensive package of financial support measures to businesses over the course of the pandemic, and they recognise that some of that support was specifically targeted at the hospitality, tourism and retail industries. However, a number of areas for continued support and attention from Welsh Government were identified by witnesses, including business rate relief and reform, support to tackle cost-of-living increases, and better supply chain support and local procurement.
The next non-domestic rates revaluation will take effect on 1 April 2023, based on property values as at 1 April 2021. This should mean that the rateable values will reflect the impact of the coronavirus pandemic, and I'm pleased that in response to the committee's report the Welsh Government has committed to reviewing this and whether transitional support is needed or appropriate, going forward. Businesses in hospitality, tourism and retail made it clear that business rates are an increasingly unjust system, and so I hope the Minister will reflect on their message and use the levers he has to help ensure that any reform of the system results in a much more level playing field for businesses, going forward.
We also know that businesses are feeling pressured by the rising cost of living. The impact of the war in Ukraine, supply-chain issues, rising inflation and the soaring cost of energy, fuel and food have all contributed to the rising cost of living, and that's having a real impact on Welsh businesses. As our report makes clear, sectors that rely on households' discretionary spending on non-essential goods and services are being increasingly squeezed, and workers and businesses owners already badly affected by the pandemic face increased mental health strain. Indeed, businesses operating in more rural areas in particular are disproportionately affected by increased energy and fuel costs to run their business and access services, as well as facing greater skills shortages.
In light of this, the committee has recommended that the Minister should set out whether hospitality, tourism and retail businesses can be given additional flexibility in repaying loans to Welsh Government or the Development Bank of Wales in light of the continuing financial pressures they face. In addition to that, the committee has also recommended that the Minister for Economy should consider what additional support for capital investment can be provided to the hospitality, tourism and retail sectors.
Dirprwy Lywydd, I'm particularly pleased that these two recommendations have been accepted by the Minister, because in accepting them, the Welsh Government shows us that it's listening to these sectors and that it's committed to reviewing the support it can offer to businesses as part of in-year capital budget monitoring and the annual budget-setting process.
The committee's report also considered the long-awaited strategy for the Welsh retail sector. The strategy was published in June and the committee now looks forward to seeing the promised delivery plan, which the Minister says will take account of evidence to this committee inquiry. It's vital that we all better understand how any measures and activity will be resourced to meet needs identified by the retail forum, and the extent to which these will be met from existing or new funding. And the committee will certainly be monitoring this area further in due course.
The committee also considered the Welsh Government's approach to the visitor economy, and Members will be aware that the Welsh Government is currently consulting on the introduction of a visitor levy. This comes alongside recent regulations that have been set in place to increase the number of days that self-catering accommodation must be let each year in order to qualify for business rates rather than paying council tax, rising from 70 days to 182 days. I'd like to thank the Minister for his detailed explanation of the reasoning behind the changes in the Welsh Government's response to our report. The response sets out that these initiatives are being implemented to increase vibrancy, encourage more usage of properties and to ensure that tourism pays its way.
The committee heard a lot of concern, however, about these changes and in particular the introduction of the levy. We heard evidence that where tourism taxes work, there tends to be a lower VAT rate for tourism and hospitality than we have in Wales and that a visitor levy was the wrong tax at the wrong time. Therefore, I’m pleased to see the Welsh Government has accepted the committee’s recommendations in this area, as it’s clear that more work needs to be done to take the industry along with Government on this specific issue.
Finally, I want to briefly touch on workers in these three industries. The Wales TUC told us that 70 per cent to 75 per cent of workers in tourism and hospitality earned below the real living wage, and that was supported in the feedback the committee received from our interviews. As I said at the start of my remarks, the committee heard that many people loved working in hospitality, retail and tourism, but we also heard that workers were worried about low wages, job security and poor terms and conditions. With tourism and hospitality employing so many Welsh workers, it is vital that the Government works hard to improve the quality of jobs in the sector via support for businesses to improve their offer and workers to improve their skills.
The Minister made it clear that the economic contract was important for encapsulating the Welsh Government’s approach to raising the bar for these sectors. However, the committee heard worrying evidence from unions, the Federation of Small Businesses and the Bevan Foundation that the economic contract was poorly understood and having—at best—limited impact. Therefore, it’s vital that the Welsh Government provides assurances that the economic contract is being better promoted and that there is sufficient monitoring and enforcement of the contract to ensure it’s having more of an impact on workers in these sectors. The Welsh Government must really do more to place value on workers in these sectors. These are workers embedded and serving in our local communities, and the Government must be proactive in ensuring that these sectors are better supported in the future.
On that note, I’d quickly like to repeat my thanks to everyone who engaged with the committee during our work on this important issue, and also thank the team who supported the committee to carry out this inquiry. I look forward to hearing Members’ views on this key issue of supporting our hospitality, tourism and retail industries and the people who work hard in them to make Wales a fantastic country to live in and visit. Thank you.

Luke Fletcher AS: I want to thank the Chair and clerks for their work on this report, and I also want to give thanks for the work that happened through the engagement team, which was a great help as we gathered evidence from workers in the sectors of tourism, retail and hospitality, a workforce that often has difficulty in ensuring that its voice is heard outside of the workplace. I know that many are very grateful for the opportunity to contribute to the committee’s work.

Luke Fletcher AS: I’m going to focus on hospitality in particular. It’s a significant sector in itself, employing at its height 200,000 people in Wales, and it’s a sector that I have a good amount of experience in. However, much of this will be applicable to retail and tourism.
When we first undertook our inquiry into the sector, much of it focused on the effects the pandemic had on it as a sector, and the struggles the sector was having in dealing with the aftermath. I think it’s fair to say that much of that has been completely overtaken by the cost-of-living crisis. All of us get on a daily basis correspondence from businesses in our constituencies and regions who are struggling to stay open. VAT and business rates were highlighted in evidence to us. The Chair has referred to business rates already; VAT was also a particular sticking point of interest, given the desire by the sector not to revert back to the 20 per cent rate. I think the economy Minister was right in what he said: going back to the 20 per cent rate could damage the economy more than help it; more so now, given the cost-of-living crisis.
Thanks to the cost of living, we can now also add to that list of worries high inflation and energy costs. One hospitality business in my region, for example, saw their annual energy bill go from £15,000 to just shy of £70,000. Another more public one, RistoranteVecchio in Bridgend, shared how their energy bill was now at £8,000 a month. The reality is we need serious intervention from Government now if many hospitality businesses are to survive beyond the winter.
Staffing was also an issue raised with us as a committee, and the real struggle the sector is having with recruitment. We heard from the sector, who were ready to admit that there were long-standing issues that needed to be addressed—such as wages, job security and work-life balance—as a starting point. But there was also a very keen desire to professionalise the sector as well, to show new entrants that there is a progression pathway, as well as training, something highlighted consistently as a desire from the evidence collected from workers. Fundamentally, this is needed, because I would hope it would lead to a change in culture and in how people treat hospitality workers as a whole. The amount of times customers thought it was okay to talk down and patronise me and my colleagues are uncountable; it was an hourly occurrence, if not a by-the-minute one.
I'll always remember one interaction I had. A couple came up to the bar that I was working on at the time. They ordered two espresso martinis. I could tell almost straight away that they were a specific type of people. It wasn't because of the drinks they ordered, because I do actually quite like an espresso martini, but I could tell it by the way they ordered the drinks. I started making the order. They went on about a holiday that they'd been on recently, holidaying on their friend's £1 million yacht, and they turned to me and said, 'I bet that's a bit of a culture shock for you, isn't it?' I think Members know me well enough to know what my reaction to that would have been, but that's an example I have. I have many more examples, but there are also millions more examples out there.
But that's why the culture needs to change, and that's why I was encouraged by the recognition of the sector that there was a need for that change as well. I've given one negative story about hospitality, but I will finish on a positive one, because it is a great sector to work in, again recognised in the evidence from workers. The experiences I had were great, and the friends I made are lifetime friends. As a sector, it's taught me so much about people, how to deal with people, especially how to deal with people with friends who have £1 million yachts. It certainly gave me the confidence and skills to be able to do what I'm doing now. It also taught me how to make a pretty good cocktail, which I'm sure we can agree is a very valuable life skill. But, in all seriousness, I'm glad to see the Welsh Government have accepted fully or at least in principle many of our recommendations, but action needs to follow. Much like the sector, I also see the Welsh Government as a vital partner in the sector's recovery and development.

Vikki Howells AC: I'd like to start my contribution today by echoing the remarks of colleagues thanking the clerking team and everyone who gave evidence that helped inform this inquiry. I think it's a really important piece of work. Around a third of the Welsh workforce is employed in the hospitality, tourism and retail sectors. The latter alone, Wales's largest private sector employer, accounts for just over 6 per cent of our national gross value added. As such, these are incredibly important parts of our economy.
When we normally conduct an inquiry of this nature, I approach the piece of work with a spirit of optimism. We investigate a problem, get some really robust data and evidence, put forward non-partisan solutions, and these, hopefully, lead to remediation of the challenges identified. However, in this case, with this inquiry, the challenges have become much more severe, even in the five months since the publication of our report. I know that this will not be a surprise to colleagues in the Siambr, to those who gave evidence, or to businesses and people employed in the sectors.
The Caterer, which covers hospitality, conducted a survey of the sector in September. Eighty per cent of respondents said rising energy prices had wiped out their profits. Three out of five feared their business would not be there in a year's time. The majority of respondents had noted energy bills had risen by more than 100 per cent, with 22 per cent saying their costs had increased by a staggering 400 per cent. The chief executive of UKHospitality, at the start of this week, issued a stark warning about the sector's extreme vulnerability to energy price fluctuations, and accused energy company bosses of profiteering. Of course, hospitality and tourism are both sectors gravely affected by people having less money in their pockets due to the cost-of-living crisis.
Similarly, these pressures are also having a tremendous impact on workers in the sectors. USDAW trade union represents shop workers. I'm a member of USDAW, and in their recent survey of retail workers, it was revealed that half are struggling to get to work due to increased travel costs, one in four workers are missing meals every month to pay bills, and three in four report that their mental health is affected as a result of financial worries. There is a clear need for this committee to undertake further work in this area, examining the impact of the crisis and scrutinising the interventions of both the Welsh and UK Governments. I hope this is a topic to which we can return and, moreover, one where future inquiries can leave me feeling a little more optimistic for the future.
Turning to the report's specific recommendations, I just want to comment on a few key ideas. Firstly, recommendation 5 is calling for additional support from the Welsh Government for capital investment. I'm pleased that the Welsh Government has accepted this recommendation. It's something I support. However, we must realise the impact of spending pressures on Welsh Government budgets since our report was written and since Welsh Government replied to our recommendations. That's not just the cost of living and rising prices, but the economic inadequacy of successive Tory Prime Ministers and their cliques. As the finance Minister reminded us just last month, over the current three-year spending period, the Welsh Government's budget will be worth up to £4 billion less in real terms than when it was set the year prior—£4 billion less. The challenge is stark.
Reading recommendations 9 through to 12, I'm pleased by the Welsh Government's engagement with our comments. A visitor levy is, in my opinion, a common-sense approach to generate the investment to enhance the tourism offer in an area. There's nothing new about the idea, and it's standard practice in many countries and territories. Recently, Edinburgh council became set to bring in a visitor levy, which will be used to support waste and cleansing services, and to deliver improvements to public areas and green spaces. A small charge won't deter visitors, and I don't agree with the naysayers who just want to run down all that Wales has to offer.
Finally, the recommendations relating to fair work. I note the Welsh Government's response that it is, again, a matter of fact that the interventions we called for are largely a matter for UK Ministers. However, I look forward to Welsh Ministers using the tools that are at their disposal to make sure that workers in all these sectors are valued, appreciated and receive the fair day's pay they should be able to expect. Diolch.

Samuel Kurtz MS: I would like to begin this afternoon's contribution by echoing the comments of all my fellow committee members by thanking everyone who contributed and the clerking team in compiling this report. It comes at an incredibly pivotal time for the hospitality and tourism industry, especially within the context of incoming Welsh Government legislation, so I'm pleased we are given the opportunity to review the Welsh visitor economy and lay out a concrete set of proportionate recommendations.
The hospitality, tourism and retail industries are key employers in Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire. Our natural beauty is world renowned and enjoyed by both domestic and international tourists. And when they visit, they're welcomed by a whole range of small and medium-sized businesses, all of whom contribute economic opportunities to my constituents. With that, my intention this afternoon is to focus on two specific aspects of this report: the impact of the Welsh Government's tourism tax, and the fair work levers available to the Welsh Government to ensure that the barriers to work within the hospitality, tourism and retail sectors are minimised.
Recommendations 9 to 11 of this report place a specific requirement for the Welsh Government to provide concrete evidence, information and reasoning for the introduction of their tourism tax. We are not just requesting the thought process behind the decision to pursue this policy, but we wish to better understand the output of three individual research projects that investigated the prospect of a Wales tourism tax. The committee rightly highlighted the tourism and hospitality industries' view that any form of tourism tax or levy was neither wanted nor needed. The Welsh tourism association suggested that the Welsh Government's policy would be a form of double taxation, and UKHospitality Cymru stated that a levy was the wrong tax at the wrong time. Indeed, other organisation described this policy as a hugely regressive step and a knee-jerk reaction. It's not really a ringing endorsement of your plans, Minister, and I would go so far as saying it is the direct opposite of what the industry wants and needs—not 'naysayers', as the previous speaker would say, but the industry themselves.
I am glad to see that the Welsh Government has accepted all three of these recommendations, but, in reference to recommendations 9 and 10, I am disappointed that the committee had to nudge the Welsh Government towards transparency. I am disappointed that the requested information was shared with the committee less than two hours ago, but, hey, at least we got it.
One such way to support business growth is by ensuring that businesses can grow. In doing so, we're not just investing back in the local economy, but we're using existing levers to address employment shortfalls within the industry. As recommendation 18 sets out, there are significant barriers to fair work, specifically in relation to topics of employment, wages and conditions. Over the last several years, difficulties have arisen as a consequence of local employment gaps, and in no better way was this illustrated than last summer, when businesses in Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire had to shut during the peak season due to low staffing levels.
We have a real opportunity to ensure that your legislation is transparent and accountable, and whilst these benches and the industry itself may disagree with your tourist tax policy, you certainly owe it to the hospitality and tourism industry, and the many thousands who are employed within it, to demonstrate your grounds for its introduction. It is with this sentiment that I would urge the Welsh Government to implement and deliver upon the recommendations made within this report at its earliest opportunity. Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Sarah Murphy AS: I want to start, again, like everybody else, by thanking my colleagues and the clerks for their work on this report. As our Chair, Paul Davies, said, this is one of the first things that we said that we wanted to look into, and it seems like a very long time ago now. As you set out in your foreword, the staycation, at the time that we were looking at it, wasn't it—the bounce back from the COVID-19 pandemic. And it reignited that sense of pride in our local hospitality, tourism and retail sectors across Wales. Now, almost 18 months later, in conjunction with this, these very sectors that often saw the brunt of those COVID restrictions on businesses, especially the small and local economies in our towns and communities, they are now facing this cost-of-living crisis and we can expect, for businesses, if they're not already suffering, it could get an awful lot worse.
So, I am very, very pleased that this has come out now and that we've managed to really incorporate both aspects of what's happening for our businesses, and I'm really pleased that the Welsh Government has accepted, or accepted in principle, all of the recommendations set out in the report. There is an overwhelming sense of need to insulate these sectors, but, also, it would be nice to see whether they can also continue to thrive and not just have to survive through these really tough economic times.
As our Chair, Paul Davies MS, highlighted, recommendation 13 is really crucial, because it really sets out the opportunities for career pathways within the hospitality and tourism sector, including the degree apprenticeships. During the evidence sessions, we heard from workers from a range of backgrounds who wanted to work in the places that they grew up in. The Government and these sectors must work collaboratively to ensure that there are opportunities for career progression locally to support this. I am pleased to see that this work on the foundation economy is being carried out by the Welsh Government, and I hope to see further opportunities in the future.
I also wanted to highlight recommendation 18 about the vitality of fair work, because it is no secret that there are many workers in these sectors who continue to face insecurity. Wales Trades Union Congress; Unite Wales; the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers and others contributed to evidence sessions detailing the realities of insecure contracts that really just made them feel like they're disposable, and that workers are facing poor pay and then lack of staff. One contributor said that she had no idea of her rights at work, and I would stress that we must do more to empower workers to understand their rights, through the role of trade unions and social partnership. No worker should be facing abuse for simply doing their job, or, as my colleague, Luke Fletcher, highlighted, just being treated as if you're beneath other people because of the profession that you have. Workers should be empowered to speak up on these issues, and I hope that the Welsh Government will take these into consideration when it comes to social partnership in these sectors.
Lastly, I'd just like to draw attention to the number of recommendations around the tourism levy. Porthcawl in my constituency relies heavily on the tourism sector; obviously, we have Coney Beach, we have the Elvis festival and we have surfing at Rest bay. I have been speaking with my community for some time about this proposal. I feel that, whenever we get into the conversation about it, there are a lot of misconceptions, and some of those did come through in our committee report. Because there are a number of examples of countries across Europe and the world that have a tourism levy, and this includes tourist destinations such as France, Belgium, Spain, Thailand and New Zealand, to name a few. The basis for these levies varies from country to country, with some setting a rate per person; others by room, location or star rating of the accommodation. In Bulgaria, the levy is set locally and ranges from 10 cents to €1.53 for the first night's stay. The money raised from this levy is then reinvested back into the tourism sector. In Romania, the money raised by its levy is used for tourism promotion; in Spain, it is used for sustainable tourism projects. And whilst there are many possibilities for how a tourism levy could be set out, it is imperative that communities have a say in how it is spent. I am not bringing my own bias to this; I am truly just saying what I have spoken to when I have talked to people in my community. Because the fact is that people in Kenfig Hill and Nantymoel, through their council tax, are paying for those beaches and those public toilets in the summer, and when we have the Elvis festival and that street is closed down, that costs about £35,000 to the council budget, and people in those communities are paying for that. So I don't think that tourists would mind being able to pay so that we were able to keep the beautiful town of Porthcawl that they want to come and visit clean and well kept.
The Welsh Government has accepted the recommendation for an evidence-based approach when proposing the tourism levy, and their intention is to engage with the stakeholders during the consultation process on this, and that is all that I'm asking for—I just want a consultation where people are stakeholders are really given the facts on this, given an international perspective on this, the possibility of this, and also, ideally, a trial on this. So, thank you, everybody, for the hard work that’s gone into this report. It is constantly ever changing and moving, but I welcome the Welsh Government's response. Thank you.

Tom Giffard AS: As the first Member to speak in this debate who is not on the committee, can I thank the members of the committee who have spoken so far, especially Paul Davies as the Chair, as well as his research and clerking team and all those who gave their evidence for the report on this important sector, for the recommendations to Welsh Government and for bringing this debate to the Chamber today?What the committee has brought us today is a very interesting report with lots for us as Members, but also for the Welsh Government, to consider as to how they can support the industry, not just financially, but as a friend who listens to concerns in the industry as well. So, I was glad to see that one of the very first lines in the report notes the 'colossal hit' that the tourism hospitality and retail sectors have been under over the past few years. It’s in that context that it is crucial that, now more than ever, we need to be that supportive friend to the sector.
With the interests of time in mind I’ve picked out just a few of the committee report’s recommendations to focus my contribution on today. In recommendation 8, it stated that:
‘The Welsh Government should outline in detail their reasoning for the increase in the number of days per annum that a self-catering property must be available to let to 252, and days actually let to 182’.
As the Minister will be aware, I’ve raised this issue on a number of occasions in this Chamber and had little explanation from Ministers as to the reasoning for that change. Self-catering accommodation forms an important part of the mix in the tourism economy, which is a key industry in many parts of Wales. Moreover, it provides accommodation in rural areas away from centres, allowing them to benefit from the tourist economy too, and in some parts of Wales, it’s the only viable way of turning a day trip in a remote but idyllic Welsh community into an overnight stay.
But what still hasn’t been set out is the rationale for the number of 182 days and how it’s been arrived at, and the jump from 70 to 182 qualifying days seems hugely significant, particularly in light of the consultation responses being overwhelmingly opposed to it. So, justification for changes from the Minister would be reasonable and welcome. What the industry would like to hear from Government is how this will be measured. Is the new threshold linked to seasonal activity, or how many days they expect in an average tourism season? What will that figure look like? In some localities where there is currently a lack of tourist activity and provision, but it would be beneficial for it to be developed, we may wish to spread tourist destinations far away from hotspots. So, there may be a good reason to incentivise lets to be available, and there may need to be wiggle room built in to allow for that locally. These thresholds appear to be very high in that context, therefore, would there be room to adapt to those local circumstances? And whilst we have a great tourism offer here in Wales, I’ve reiterated time and time again that, with the current post-COVID tourism sector visitor market in a very uncertain and unstable period, this impact, along with cost-of-living pressures and the cost-of-doing-business crisis debated here just a few weeks ago, should be taken into account in any new rationale for these new thresholds.
Recommendation 9 asks for the Welsh Government to,
‘set out the evidence base it considered in deciding to pursue the introduction of a local tourism levy at this time.’
I don’t have to repeat the arguments that have been made in opposition to this tax, but given the climate that these businesses are currently having to operate in, it surely should be apparent to Welsh Government that now is not the time to be burdening businesses with yet more taxes, when the sector is facing ever-increasing challenges. Sarah Murphy asked for an international perspective. Well, we know that Venice has introduced a tourism tax specifically to suppress the number of tourists entering Venice, rather than add to the numbers. So, it's unbelievable that a replication of the Venice model seems to be the Welsh Government's preferred option here.
Finally, Llywydd, recommendation 11 says that,
'The Welsh Government should set out in detail the intended approach to consulting on the draft legislation for a proposed local tourism levy'.
While I appreciate that the consultation is still live—and I'll take this opportunity to encourage all those in the sector to have their say—what I would have liked to have seen from Welsh Government on this is more engagement with the sector as, again, I've repeatedly tried to bring the voice of the industry to this Chamber, and they tell me, time and time again, that they feel punished by this Welsh Government. Let's not forget that these are the businesses that already invest in their communities through the local supply chains, employing local people and reinvesting that money in their communities.An additional taxation jeopardises further investment in communities across Wales. Those within the tourism sector are clear, and they keep telling me that morale within the industry is at an all-time low, and it is as a direct result of the Welsh Government's actions in this area that specifically target their industry. And so, Vikki Howells'scontribution earlier saying that they're all naysayers is really disappointing in that context as well. Therefore, I hope, in consideration of the report, the Welsh Government sees this as the time to get behind the tourism industry, back our local communities and safeguard the one in seven jobs that rely on it thriving.

Sam Rowlands MS: Could I also thank the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee, under, of course, the fantastic chairmanship of Paul Davies, for bringing forward today's important committee report, 'Raising the Bar: Securing the future of Hospitality, Tourism and Retail'. I quite like that title, actually—'Raising the Bar'. As I'm sure that Members from across the Chamber will know, and from contributions from myself in the Senedd over the last 18 months, and especially as the chairman of the Senedd's cross-party-group on tourism, I'm a huge advocate of the hospitality and tourism sector in Wales, and that's why I want to contribute to today's committee report debate—something which Alun Davies often comments to me on, about my advocacy of the sector, and I'm pleased that he's mentioning it again over there—because this report clearly highlights the sheer importance of the sector, but it also outlines many of the challenges it faces as well.
I'd like to just focus my contribution on just a couple of important areas from the report, and firstly, just to again highlight the importance of the sector in our economy in Wales. As always, one to take note of output from the Federation of Small Businesses, I took a keen interest in their report over the summer on tourism that, again, showed that tourism accounts for over 17 per cent of Wales's gross domestic product, but it also accounts for over 12 per cent of employment here in Wales. As others have mentioned, if you include hospitality and retail within that, we're talking about a third of the economy here in Wales, clearly showing how important it is to our communities and to the residents we represent up and down Wales.This was also outlined in the Chair's foreword to the committee report, which I'll directly quote, saying that,
'The hospitality, tourism and retail sectors are absolutely vital to our nation’s success. Alongside the large numbers of jobs they create they also provide the backbone of the entertainment and social life people in Wales, and our visitors, enjoy, and that make Wales an outstanding place to live or visit.'
But there are, of course, challenges facing the sector, and others have already highlighted some of those here this afternoon. As we know, the Welsh Government's proposed tourism tax is of huge concern to the tourism sector, and that's why I, like others, was glad to see the consideration of this as a part of a number of the committee's recommendations to the Welsh Government and, indeed, to the Minister. As outlined in recommendations 9, 10 and 11, it's crucial that Welsh Government sets out its evidence behind a tourism tax, but also shares their research projects behind this, and sets out their intended approach when it comes to this draft legislation.
If a tourism tax is to be introduced, it's vital that councils are able to spend this not only sustaining tourism in their local area, but also to see it being boosted. And I believe that it's also very important, in terms of making this as effective as possible, that there are mechanisms in place to include businesses and their voice in the decision-making process of how this new revenue spend will take place in their areas.
Another concern that's been passed through to me as the chair of the tourism cross-party group is the ongoing worries that the tourism sector, and in particular, the self-catering sector, regarding the 182-day rule, which has already been referenced here today, and referenced in recommendation 8 of the report.And as has been mentioned by others, this is part of a long list of Government-enforced changes to the sector, which is causing a significant amount of anxiety for many business owners and tourism attractions across Wales. And this is why it's so important that if, on the one hand, more is expected of the sector in terms of legislation and compliance, then, on the other hand, more should be offered to the sector in terms of support and advocacy. And that is why I welcome recommendation 7 in the report, which is seeking to clearly show where this support is provided and focused so that the sector can have the assurance that it's treated with the level of respect and importance that it deserves.
And this leads into my final comments relating to the need for support for the sector and clarity as to what the future may hold, which is extremely important, following difficulties faced during the COVID-19 pandemic and now with the pressures that global inflation is providing as well. And indeed, this support needs to be there in terms of the financial, but, in softer support, in terms of advocacy and highlighting the opportunities the sector holds for Wales and for our communities, I know the Minister will want to make sure that those opportunities are highlighted and will always want to speak well of the sector as well.
Because, indeed, as outlined by UKHospitality Cymru, before COVID-19, the hospitality and tourism sector was growing around 10 per cent a year, creating hundreds of new jobs for local people up and down Wales. And it's clear from the committee's evidence from UKHospitality Cymru that both Welsh and UK Governments have provided some good support to the sector over the COVID-19 pandemic. So, the Minister's announcement ofreassessment of the principles behind business rates is also welcomed in this continued spirit of support.
I'm conscious of time, Deputy Presiding Officer, so I just want to thank, again, the committee for bringing forward the report and the recommendations in it, and the Minister for listening to the committee and I'm looking forward to seeing how those pan out over the coming months.

James Evans MS: There is much to welcome in this report and I'd like to thank the committee and its members, led by my colleague Paul Davies, for their work on producing this fantastic report.
As the report points out, there were fearful predictions of mass unemployment during the pandemic, but, thanks to the UK Government's furlough scheme, mass unemployment was avoided in Wales due to the UK Government. I am pleased also that the Minister has accepted recommendations in the report, yet there are still tough times ahead for our hospitality, tourism and retail sector, especially in Brecon and Radnorshire, which relies on this an awful lot.
We are in the midst of global difficulties and the long shadow of COVID is still upon us, but I do think there are two big things that the Welsh Government could do to help Welsh businesses. On reading the report, it was very clear that the tourism levy discussed by the Welsh Government was a big concern for industry bodies and professionals. So, one thing the Welsh Government could do is to ditch the tourism tax and any other anti-business measures aimed at the tourism sector. Our tourism businesses bring in huge amounts of money into Wales, with one in seven jobs that rely on that industry. So, I'd urge the Welsh Government to stop assaulting hard-working people up and down the country who seek to make Wales an attractive destination with their hotels, B&Bs and cottages.
Business rates were also raised in the report. And a lot of people say that they are very regressive in Wales and that things could be done differently here to attract business and help business. So, you could lower business rates in Wales. Labour-run, here in Wales, has the highest business rates in the whole of Great Britain. This does make us less competitive. Tax burdens on businesses are too high and Welsh businesses should be able to keep more of their own money to spend on wages and business improvement. [Interruption.] I'm sure Alun Davies will like this point; he's chuntering away there. But I do understand and I do recognise that the Welsh Government do not have all the levers to help people in Wales. And I was very disappointed with the UK Government's reversal on freezing alcohol duty. That was going to save the hospitality and pub industry £300 million. And I think at a time when our pubs are closing—40 are closing a month in England and Wales—that the UK Government should do more to protect our pub industry. And I would like to hear what the Minister is doing in discussions with the UK Government to actually save our pubs, because they are the life blood of our community.
Hospitality and tourism businesses really do need a friend, and they do need a leg-up from this Welsh Labour Government and the UK Conservative Government. They don't need to be undermined at a time when they face the possibility of going out of business. So, I'd like to welcome the report and thank you for all the work the committee has done, and I'd be grateful to hear the Minister's response.

And I call on the Minister for Economy, Vaughan Gething.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I too would like to thank members of the Economy, Trade, and Rural Affairs Committee for their in-depth inquiry and report into the future of hospitality, tourism and retail, leading to this debate today.
As we all know, the experience of recent years has been a significant challenge for most businesses in most sectors here in Wales, including, of course, the hospitality, tourism and retail sectors. Now, I won't follow Luke Fletcher in recounting some of my own personal experiences working in the hospitality sector, but I do recognise that not everyone that I dealt with was kind or decent. And actually, we've seen that trend, unfortunately, increase; it's been mentioned by a number of Members, especially given the significant labour shortages that exist in lots of these sectors and, indeed, more broadly. And I'm regularly reminded that whilst, at the moment, most of the world is short-staffed, please be kind and decent to the people who've showed up, and that's really important for the kind of atmosphere we want to create for working people in this and every other sector.
Now, during and since the pandemic, this Government has worked relentlessly to try and support businesses impacted, not just the support that's been provided by the UK Government in furlough—and it was, I think, one of the better measures the UK Government introduced during the pandemic, and I certainly welcomed it—but also the Welsh Government then provided the economic resilience fund and, indeed, additional business rates relief, and that has made a difference in those businesses that have survived and actually managed to end the pandemic in relatively optimistic shape. But, of course, our economy faces significant short- and long-term challenges: the current cost-of-living crisis, increased energy costs, and, of course, skill and recruitment shortages that have not gone away. I do fully recognise the scale and the number of challenges facing businesses. I understand why people who lead, manage and work in those businesses are concerned, and the Welsh Government is in no doubt about the gravity of the situation. We need to recover both from the economic damage of the pandemic, the fact that many businesses are now cash-depleted in having survived; we need to address the realities of our new trading relationships post Brexit and the impact that has on many businesses in these sectors, and, of course, the cost-of-living and the cost-of-business crisis.
So, our renewed economic mission that I published last year sets out clearly the values and priorities that will shape the choices that I will make to support the future of our economy. But, Dirprwy Lywydd, we've already heard from a number of speakers the impact of the turmoil in Westminster and what that has done to the broader economic picture, and, frankly, the relationships we're able to have with the UK Government with so many ministerial changes. And I don't think I can open this debate today without acknowledging the extraordinary challenge that the last two months in particular has created for businesses and, indeed, as Vikki Howells recognised, the fact—and it's an undeniable fact—that the value of the Welsh Government budget, in this spending review period, has decreased by about £4 billion in real terms. And Vikki Howells also recognised that significant worsening in the economic picture since the report was completed, and that's an undeniable reality. It will change the focus of businesses; it will change the ability of this Government and others to support businesses not just to survive but to thrive in the future.
The challenges of customers having less disposable income are especially felt within these sectors. The challenges of working people coming in, and, again, the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers' report has been recognised—the impact on workers not just of having less money in their own pay packets, but the impact again on customers coming in. And I certainly would welcome a future inquiry from this committee on looking at the shifting economic picture, and, when the UK Government has finalised some more of its opportunities and the choices not just in the budget, but the future energy support scheme, what that will mean for sectors in the economy moving forwards in the future. And that certainly would help to inform choices that the Welsh Government needs to make here in Wales.
Now, I recognise that recent UK Government budget announcements have provided some support. The energy bill relief scheme that was announced in September provides some short-term relief for businesses, but there is a need, which I'm sure is recognised on a cross-party basis, for a longer term view for businesses to be able to plan. You can't plan to make choices over the next year if you're only certain of an element of support that will end in March, and also not just the clarity in what will happen after that, but when that clarity will be provided. And as I say, I'm sure there will be cross-party recognition of the need for not just clarity on what the future is, but actually for the discounts to be passed on swiftly to businesses to make sure they can survive to look forward to the new year. We also, of course, need to understand what will happen on 17 November. The reality of those choices won't just affect public services; they'll affect what we're able to do to support the economy, they'll affect customers, they'll affect workers, they'll affect businesses and jobs.
But, of course, when I look forward to our ability to support businesses, we regularly discuss these matters with businesses themselves. The visitor economy forum regularly meets; I'm due to meet them in the coming weeks. I'm due to meet more individual businesses not just with regard to the immediate challenges, but, immediately after 17 November, we'll be meeting again. We had a recent economic summit, again to listen to sectors across the economy and then to try to tailor our response and to have that honest conversation. What is different, of course, about Wales is that we do that in a spirit of social partnership, with our trade union representatives. In fact, yesterday, I met with the retail sector to take forward the vision that has been co-produced by the Government, businesses and trade unions, led by our colleagues in USDAW, and to look at the delivery plan to understand what, collectively, we can do together to maintain that sector and to see it have a decent future, with decent work as well as decent services that are valued in each of our communities. So, I continue to not just want to see a thriving group of businesses within the sectors we're discussing today, but how we can do that within the reality of the context. Our ambition remains, for example, in tourism, to grow the sector for the good of Wales. That means economic growth that delivers benefits for people and places, including environmental sustainability, social and cultural enrichment, and the health benefits that come from good work.
I think, turning to the committee's recommendations, it's pleasing to hear a broad welcome for the Government's response to the recommendations and how we will look to work alongside those and, of course, provide an update to the committee in due course of the progress we're making against those recommendations.
In terms of some of our response on business rates, of course, with recommendations 1 and 2, we're providing that additional £116 million package. That will be available until the end of the financial year. However, we do need to see the realities of what is going to come in the budget on 17 November and whether there is a future fiscal event in the spring as well. But there is a consultation seeking views on reforming non-domestic rates, and that will be open until 14 December, and I'd encourage people to get involved in that consultation.
On capital investment, Visit Wales, of course, provides capital investment to support businesses operating in tourism and hospitality, with three particular channels: that's the Wales tourism investment fund of £50 million; the £2.5 million strategic capital investment; and, of course, the annual Brilliant Basics programme.
On recommendation 8, we have recently made changes to self-catering thresholds. These are designed to incentivise the use of properties and help bring empty and under-used properties back into use. If a property is not operated as a business, it will be liable for council tax.
With regards to recommendations 9 and 10, we're consulting on giving local authorities the power to introduce a visitor levy, and a full consultation started on 20 September. It's pleasing to hear not just one side of this debate, but Sarah Murphy, obviously, outlining different views within her own constituency and international evidence of this. I appreciate some contributors would like to see this Government join others in having regular u-turns and avoiding commitments in their manifesto, but we're determined to do what we told the people of Wales we would do in designing, delivering and consulting on a levy.
I can see time is nearly against me, but I just want to finish—

The time has actually gone past the limit.

Vaughan Gething AC: I just want to finish by making it clear to members of the committee that we have taken seriously the report that we've been provided, we will update on progress on the recommendations, and I look forward to further work with this committee through the rest of the term.

I call on the Chair of the committee, Paul Davies, to reply to the debate.

Paul Davies AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I thank Members for taking part in this debate this afternoon? Members have all touched on how the retail, tourism and hospitality industries sit at the heart of all of our communities, and that's why it's so important that the Welsh Government really understands and responds to the challenges facing these sectors.
Implementing the right policies at the right time cannot be understated; indeed, it's vital for Wales's economy and liveability. We all want our towns and cities to be thriving, vibrant, community places, and supporting these sectors is an enormous part of building those thriving community networks here in Wales. Now, as the Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire said, and the Member for North Wales said, many of our businesses in our constituencies and regions are key employers in the hospitality, tourism and retail sectors.
Members, such as Luke Fletcher and Tom Giffard, the Members for South Wales West, the Member for Bridgend, the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire and indeed the Minister have all touched on the pandemic and the economic impacts of it on our retail, hospitality and tourism sectors. It was an economic shock for which no industry was prepared, and we should take a moment to reflect on the resilience and hard work of those working in hospitality, tourism and retail for what must have been an extremely difficult time. Of course, helping these sectors recover from the pandemic and evolve to new ways of working is a big challenge, but the Welsh Government also has a great opportunity, I think, to rethink how it works with these sectors going forward. These industries are facing challenges from all angles, whether it's taxation policies, shifts to online commerce, or even just the loss of confidence in young people to apply for roles. Arwyn Watkins from the National Training Federation Wales was right to say,
'If the number of jobs that have been lost in this sector over the last 24 months had been lost in any other sector, there would be absolute uproar, quite frankly, and nobody is saying anything about it whatsoever, apart from the employers trying to fill the vacancies.'
And, therefore, the message is pretty simple; the Welsh Government, of course, needs to raise the bar and better prioritise these industries and the people who work in them.
Members, such as the Member for Bridgend, have rightly talked about improving skills, which will help create better jobs and benefit these sectors and our economy more generally. And it's why the committee has specifically recommended that the Welsh Government should set out more detail as to where it sees scope within its planned expansion of the apprenticeships programme for higher level career pathways in tourism and hospitality, including for degree apprenticeships.
Members such as the Member for Cynon Valley have also highlighted the importance of fair work, and I think we all accept that there are real opportunities for fair work to be progressed through the new retail strategy and visitor economy action plan. The committee is also calling for greater clarity around the role of the Welsh Government's economic contract in driving fair work outcomes, and I look forward to hearing more from the Welsh Government about the progress being made in this area.
Dirprwy Lywydd, our report is called 'Raising the bar' because that's exactly what the Welsh Government needs to be doing. As Luke Fletcher said, the Government has accepted or accepted in principle the committee's recommendations, but what we want to see now is the implementation of those very recommendations. Raising the level of ambition for these sectors is vital and will help raise the quality of life of our citizens and visitors.
So, we've heard some really interesting contributions from Members today, and a constructive response from the Minister, and I want to make it clear this afternoon, as the Member for Cynon Valley said, that this will continue to be an area of priority for the Economy, Trade, and Rural Affairs Committee. I want to reassure the Minister that the committee will continue to focus on this area going forward, especially given that financial challenges have increased for these sectors since the publication of our report.
So, in closing, Dirprwy Lywydd, can I thank those who contributed to the debate this afternoon and say that the committee looks forward to being updated on the progress of the implementation of our recommendations in due course? Diolch yn fawr.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

7. Debate on the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee Report—'Annual Report 2021/22'

Item 7 this afternoon is a debate on the Legislation, Justice and the Constitution Committee report, 'Annual Report 2021/22', and I call on the committee chair to move the motion. Huw Irranca-Davies.

Motion NDM8119 Huw Irranca-Davies
To propose that the Senedd:
Notes the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee: Annual Report 2021/22, which was laid in the Table Office on 12 October 2022.

Motion moved.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. It's a pleasure to speak this afternoon and draw the Senedd's attention to the work of the Legislation, Justice and the Constitution Committee during the first full year of the sixth Senedd. Before I start, I would like to place on record our thanks to the Counsel General for his willingness to appear before us and answer our questions on a regular basis.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: It is truly appreciated.
Our remit is quite considerable, and our scrutiny responsibilities are almost always subject to timetables and deadlines set either by Standing Orders or the Business Committee. And the scrutiny of subordinate legislation is part of our bread-and-butter work. In the first year, indeed, we considered more than 250 pieces of subordinate legislation made by Welsh Ministers. In part, this can be attributed to the Welsh Government's desire to fully implement Acts passed in previous Seneddau. One such Act is the Renting Homes (Wales) Act 2016. The case study in our report highlights our scrutiny of the subordinate legislation that implements this Act and the corrections we identified. This shows the importance of our—and the Senedd's—scrutiny role, not least given that subordinate legislation makes up a significant percentage of the law that impacts on the daily lives of our constituents.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: It is fair to say that we had not expected, during the first year of the sixth Senedd, to have spent quite so much time reporting on the Welsh Government's legislative consent memoranda for UK Bills. We expressed concern at the extent to which the UK Government is seeking to legislate in devolved areas, notably in circumstances where it is with the support of the Welsh Government. Reporting on memoranda for legislation being made in the UK Parliament, which we have no scope to influence or shape, is frustrating.
We would have preferred to have contributed to the improvement of legislation being made here in the Senedd, as a means of delivering the best possible solutions for communities across Wales—a role, of course, for which we as Senedd Members are elected. This also highlights one of the problems with the legislative consent process: there is no role for the Senedd to influence a decision of the Welsh Government to pursue provisions in a UK Bill in the first place.
Now, we do recognise, Counsel General, that in some cases it is appropriate to use UK Bills to legislate in devolved areas. However, our report highlights that the Welsh Government's principles for using UK Bills to legislate contain—we think—too many caveats and get-out clauses, which in our view render those principles of little practical value in this sixth Senedd period. So, we do therefore intend to draft our own principles by which we can then hold the Government to account.
Overall, Counsel General, we are concerned that too much legislation in devolved areas is being made in the UK Parliament. In certain circumstances, the Welsh Government and the UK Government could legislate in parallel, which would allow for co-operation between Governments where appropriate and for the Senedd to undertake its primary legislative scrutiny role.
Ultimately, the effect of the Welsh Government seeking devolved provision in UK Government Bills or the UK Government including devolved provision in a Bill without any consultation is one and the same: the creation of a democratic deficit and a corresponding decline in accountability here in Wales. That should concern us all, because if this approach continues, there is a danger that it could undermine the Senedd as a legislature and the underlying principles of devolution.
Our report highlights our scrutiny of two Bills introduced to the Senedd in the first year, where we were able to influence the Welsh Government to amend those Bills. It also draws attention to our concerns about the Welsh Government's approach to making law on matters of taxation—and I can see the Chair of a sister committee here as well—and in particular our desire to see primary legislation, rather than subordinate legislation, used to change tax law. Such an approach, we would argue, would respect the democratic mandate and the legislative supremacy of the Senedd.
So, let me turn now to matters concerning the constitution and to external affairs. A new inter-institutional relationship agreement has been agreed for the sixth Senedd, and we have been monitoring how the Welsh Government is performing against its commitments to share information with the Senedd and its committees. Broadly, we believe that the agreement is working well, and we will work constructively with the Welsh Government to help it make some improvements, whilst maintaining the integrity of our scrutiny function.
We have started to pay particular attention to the circumstances in which the Welsh Ministers are consenting to the UK Government making subordinate legislation in devolved areas. In particular, we have raised concerns at the limited time available to committees to give an informed view on whether the Welsh Government should give its consent. This is an issue that we will continue to monitor. It's one that is assuming greater importance, not least with the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill having recently been introduced to the UK Parliament.
For those not aware, before the end of 2023 the UK Government is currently planning for it and the devolved Governments to review all retained EU law in order to decide what to keep, to reform or to remove. This amounts to a significant undertaking, because the UK Government estimates that there are approximately 2,400 pieces of retained EU law in force. That figure does not include retained EU law made in Wales and, as many of you will be aware, reports emerged yesterday that the figure is now likely to be closer to 3,800 pieces. If the timescale introduced by the Bill is not changed, it will represent a huge burden, not just for the Welsh Government but for my committee and actually for the Senedd as a whole. It could well threaten the ability of the Welsh Government and the Senedd to function effectively.
Another area of our remit is that of UK-EU governance, and our report sets out the work we have done, which includes mapping the responsibilities of the Welsh Government, monitoring its engagement in post-Brexit UK-EU committees and securing a commitment from the First Minister to improve transparency on these matters. This work has formed the basis of our continued engagement with the EU institutions, including the UK-EU Parliamentary Partnership Assembly, which met again for the second time this week.
Our report also details our overarching role on common frameworks and the work we have undertaken on international agreements. Monitoring the implementation and operation of international agreements is important in order to assess their impact on Wales, and so it is pleasing to report the success we've had in securing more information from the Welsh Government in this area to aid that process. Moreover, our work has enabled us to further develop our engagement with committees in other Parliaments—something that is of increasing importance.
That represents another aspect of what we do that I'd like to highlight today: it's building those productive relationships with other Parliaments in the UK so that we share knowledge, with the collective aim of holding our respective Governments to account. In the last 12 months, we have hosted committees from the House of Commons and the House of Lords and, last June, we met committees from those Houses in Westminster to discuss areas of mutual interest. Just before recess, the Interparliamentary Forum met in the Senedd to discuss, amongst other things, inter-governmental relations, the Northern Ireland protocol, the retained EU law Bill, as well as holding a really excellent Q&A session with the Counsel General, who once again gave his time very willingly.
As I indicated at the start of my speech, the breadth of this committee’s remit is challenging, and with a substantial proportion of our time being taken up with the consideration of legislative matters, our scope to be proactive in scrutinising justice issues has been limited. We recognise that there are significant challenges facing citizens in Wales related to the operation of the justice system. We have met with the president of Welsh Tribunals, the Law Council of Wales and Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd on matters relating to justice in Wales and, for the first time, we undertook draft budget scrutiny on aspects of the Welsh Government’s justice portfolio. The commitments the Counsel General gave to increasing transparency on delivering the justice work programme and on the Welsh Government’s spending on justice are very welcome, and we look forward to judging progress in the next budget scrutiny round.
We also welcome the steps the Welsh Government has taken this year to respond positively to the Commission on Justice in Wales’s recommendations and support its continued joint working with the Ministry of Justice to identify the recommendations it can take forward in partnership. Although progress is being made, it is evident from engagement work that we undertook with legal practitioners that there is still much work to do to respond to the challenges currently faced by the legal sector and the barriers faced by those seeking access to justice in Wales.
So, as my comments this afternoon highlight, our ability to be proactive is somewhat limited at the moment. But, to counter this, we consider and we publish regular monitoring reports, highlighting developments within the range of subjects we cover, and then we draw them to the public’s attention as well as to that of the Senedd. It is also why we decided to prepare this annual report, to pull together in one place all the work we have undertaken between May 2021 and August 2022, and I invite the Senedd to note this report.
In closing, can I thank all the Members of the Senedd who have contributed to the work that is reflected in this report, the members of my committee, and also our clerks and research team, without whom we would frankly be submerged beneath the deluge? I look forward to other contributions this afternoon from committee members and from others, and including the Minister's response as well. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

James Evans MS: As a newish member of this committee, it really has been an eye-opener for me, being a part of the committee, to the legislative process of the Senedd and all the inter-governmental working and the sheer breadth of the work the committee does. I'd just like to put on record my thanks to our Chair, Huw Irranca-Davies, for the excellent work he does chairing that committee, and to our vice-chair who stepped into the void the other day and chaired the meeting excellently, I'd like to say.
I don't intend to speak for long, Deputy Llywydd—I'm sure you'll be pleased about that—and I'm probably not going to make some career-enhancing comments, actually, with regard to the legislative consent process. The two things I did want to talk about relate to how the UK Government and Welsh Government legislative consent process just isn't working. One thing that did shock me was the sheer lack of engagement from the UK Government with the Welsh Government on certain elements of legislation; some parts of the UK Government and some departments engage early, other departments from UK Government are shocking—they don't engage early enough on areas that have devolved competence. From my personal point of view, having LCMs sent to the Welsh Government with days or hours to go, saying, 'Can you please consent to this?' is simply disrespectful, it's poor practice with regard to inter-governmental relations, and that simply needs to change. The UK Government need to do more to improve those relationships, because if we are going to see the United Kingdom and all Parliaments working well together, there does need to be mutual respect of all elements of legislatures across the country.
The second point I wanted to make was one that has been highlighted potentially in the media, which is that this Senedd is a legislature in its own right, and we owe it to the people of Wales to be using this place to create Welsh law for Welsh people. The committee raised this; we do think that the Welsh Government is using the UK Government far too much to legislate on devolved areas. This is bypassing scrutiny; it is bypassing our committees and the democratically elected Members here who should be scrutinising this law for Welsh people. That is a matter that does need to be addressed, and I hope the Counsel General, when he responds to the report, will actually pull that together and hopefully give us some answers around that, because I know that's something that the committee really do want to see. As I said, we are a legislature in our own right, and we owe it to the people of Wales, and owe it to our Senedd Members, to respect that.
I don't intend to talk any more; I'm at the two-minute mark and I'm sure my colleague Alun Davies will expand on these matters in a far more eloquent way than I have. But I'd just like to thank Huw Irranca-Davies, Alun Davies and Rhys ab Owen for the great work they do on our committee and being fantastic Members representing this committee and the people of Wales. Diolch.

Alun Davies AC: I hesitate to expand on any matters in this forum, but I'm grateful. I think it's right that James Evans has thanked other members of the committee. I'd like to add to that Rhys ab Owen and, of course, other Members who have sat in this place—Jayne Bryant and Peter Fox as well have contributed to the work of the committee. I also want to thank of course not only the Chair, but the secretariat as well, who do a superb job in providing support for the committee. I'd like to echo the words of the committee Chair as well in thanking the Counsel General for his willingness to attend the committee. At one point, I felt he was attending more committee meetings than some Members, and I have sat in this place long enough to know that sometimes getting the Minister in front of the committee is like pulling teeth. So, we're very grateful to the Counsel General as well, and grateful to the Permanent Secretary, who attended the committee a few weeks ago.
Members who have spoken in this debate have outlined some of the key themes that the committee has sought to address, and I think the themes that have been identified by both the Chair and by the Conservative Member are the themes that I will also seek to address. I've sat on this committee for some years over a number of different Senedds, and I've never had to deal with as many legislative consent motions as we're dealing with at the moment. I'm afraid to say to the Counsel General that the Welsh Government is a villain in this matter, and it's not simply the United Kingdom Government that is acting as a villain; they are both at fault here.
It is not right or proper that the Welsh Government seeks to avoid scrutiny of its legislation by using the channels available to it in Westminster. The people of Wales have voted for devolution, and they voted for scrutiny of this devolved Government by this legislature. It is right and proper that the legislature is able to scrutinise legislation. I have no issue with the LCM process and I've got no issue with the way it's been used in the past, because it has been used to smooth jagged edges. It's been used by Ministers on both sides of the border to enable things to happen more easily and to do so in a way that facilitates the good governance of our countries. But that is not what we're dealing with at the moment. What we're dealing with at the moment is the industrial-level avoidance of scrutiny, and we can't allow that to happen. We have to speak clearly to the Welsh Government to say, as a committee, taking the politics away from this, that we should not and we cannot accept this as a legislature. We need to be clear on that.
But we also need to be clear to the United Kingdom Government that they were not elected with a mandate to deal with these matters. We have the mandate from the people of Wales. The people of Wales have voted twice in referenda to establish a Parliament to govern this country in the way that has been determined, and it is not right or proper that the United Kingdom Government, without a mandate in this country, seeks to legislate in areas that have been devolved to Wales. It is simply wrong, and it is wrong that the Westminster Parliament is used to sledgehammer home legislation for which there is no consent in Wales. We need to be very clear about that.
The other issue I want to address is inter-governmental relationships. In terms of the progress we've seen in recent years, the First Minister reached an agreement some years ago now with the UK Government, and I welcomed that, because I felt we were moving away from some of the conflict we've seen in recent years on to a better ordered, structured relationship between our Governments. But that has not happened. We have not seen that delivered. I think it was very instructive at Counsel General's questions earlier, where the Counsel General was forced to say that we have pieces of legislation here that have not even been seen by Welsh Government officials before they're laid before us and before legislative consent motions are sought. That is simply wrong and improper and shouldn't happen. It is my strong view today that the Wales Office needs to be abolished; it needs to be replaced by proper inter-governmentalism and the workings and structures of a federal state.
There are other issues we need to address. The issue of justice was one that the Chair referred to in his introduction. I know the equalities committee is doing some work at the moment on the place of women in the judicial system, and we know that the judicial system, as, again, the Counsel General outlined at questions, is being failed by the current structure of governance of the United Kingdom. So, there are major questions here that we need to address. I believe the committee is doing an excellent job in beginning to address those, and saying some very difficult things to our own Government. I think it's right and proper that committees do that. We've just seen an excellent debate from the committee before this; I thought that was an excellent way of discussing some of the policy issues around this.
But I hope, Counsel General, in answering the debate this afternoon, you will be able to address some of these themes that the committee has identified in its first year of work, because what we are seeing in the second year is that these themes are deepening, rather than being resolved. I won't test the patience of the Deputy Presiding Officer any further, but I hope that we will also see far more transparency in inter-governmentalism to enable us to hold the Governments to account and develop inter-institutional democratic scrutiny of our governmental institutions, both here and across the United Kingdom. I'm grateful to you, Deputy Presiding Officer.

Peter Fox AS: I welcome the opportunity to contribute today. It was a pleasure to be a member of the committee following my election last May, and I'm really grateful for the way the Chairman and members of the committee welcomed me to that position as a new boy. I also commend the excellent official support for the committee—an outstanding set of officers, and thank you to them. Deputy Presiding Officer, as you'll know, I'm no longer a member of the committee, but I welcome the committee Chair's statement and thank him for his work on leading the committee in such a collegiate and constructive manner. That was very welcome.
One of the main, overarching points, as we've already heard, raised by the report is the interaction between UK Government and Welsh Government when it comes to law making. I would like to reaffirm the point that it is important that the current and future UK Governments respect the devolution settlement, and also agree that there needs to be better inter-governmental working. We are all facing huge challenges at the moment; we need to work together constructively and effectively on these. And so, it is my hope that the new agreement on inter-governmental relations published earlier this year will be fine-tuned over time to ensure that there is improved co-operation on issues of shared interest. It is in this regard that I welcome the previous work of the committee in scrutinising relations between both Governments, and I hope that its future work will help to support an improvement in those relations.
The committee makes a number of points. We've heard already this afternoon about the use of LCMs and what it sees as an over-reliance on this procedure to create law in Wales. And, to some extent, I do sympathise with that point. We do receive a lot of LCMsand there are opportunities for the Welsh Government to look at implementing more made-in-Wales legislation that the Senedd can directly influence. So, there is a question for the Government as to how, as part of its law reform programme, it can increase its legislative capacity. There are also questions for the Senedd as to how we can operate to allow more legislation to be considered, particularly from backbench and opposition Members. However, I would say that we shouldn't seek to unnecessarily duplicate work where the UK Government and Welsh Government believe that it's more cost-effective, quicker and more appropriate to introduce legislation at a UK level.
Finally, Deputy Llywydd, the LJC committee report makes some interesting points about the complexity of Welsh law. As somebody who was new to scrutinising the various types of law that exist whilst on that committee, I was just somewhat surprised by how complex and procedural some of our discussions were. I welcome the Government's programme of work that is looking at making Welsh law more accessible. In this regard, I think that the committee also has a role to play in encouraging people to think more about the law and to look for more opportunities to engage with members of the public around its work.
To conclude, Deputy Presiding Officer, I reiterate my thanks to the committee and the Chair for all of their work, and wish them well in future years.

I call on the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution, Mick Antoniw.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I have listened to contributions to this debate with great interest. I would like to pay tribute to the committee for its work, and I'd like to thank Members for the report. Of course, as a former Chair of this committee, I have an understanding of its work, and I do acknowledge the comments made in the report on how challenging the remit of the committee is in terms of managing your workload and delivering against that workload.
Effective scrutiny by committees is extremely important in order to ensure good governance, and it is a crucial part of parliamentary democracy. The report, broadly speaking, separates into three sections, which consider the committee's work in scrutinising legislation, constitutional issues and, thirdly, justice. I will make my comments today based on similar sections.

Mick Antoniw AC: Dirprwy Lywydd, I'm grateful for the committee's role in scrutinising primary and secondary legislation, particularly against the challenging context we have all been operating and continue to operate in since Brexit and the start of the pandemic. The committee has scrutinised an unprecedented volume of subordinate legislation. As the excellent report highlights, the committee has reported on 234 items of subordinate legislation during the 12-month period, compared to 111 items in the same period of the fifth Senedd. So, this represents a significant increase in the committee's work.
The report provides some useful examples of how the committee has taken forward its scrutiny of subordinate legislation, and I agree with the reference in the report that this demonstrates the important role the committee has and has developed in ensuring that subordinate legislation should be as clear and as accessible as possible.I also welcome the acknowledgement that the Welsh Government shares this goal.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Mick Antoniw AC: Turning to Bills, as the First Minister set out in his latest statement on the legislative programme on 5 July, we are moving forward with an ambitious programme of primary legislation. We have introduced the first six Bills of this Senedd term and the committee has played a significant and fundamental role in those to date. I'd like to thank the committee and the Chair for their work on the first two Bills of this term that have been passed by the Senedd, namely the Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Act and the Welsh Tax Acts etc. (Power to Modify) Act. The report refers to 40 recommendations that were made in relation to both of those Bills, and it draws out some of the overarching themes and issues in scrutinising the Bills to date. As we go forward with our legislative programme, we will reflect on those themes.
Now, the report mentions the committee's current work on two Bills that are currently making their way through the Senedd:the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Bill and the Historic Environment (Wales) Bill. I think the historic environment Bill is worth a particular mention, given that it is the first consolidation Bill and the committee is the lead scrutiny committee for it. The Environmental Protection (Single-use Plastic Products) (Wales) Bill and the Agriculture (Wales) Bill have also now been introduced to the Senedd. These are the first two Bills within year 2 of the legislative programme. These are outside the reporting period covered by the annual report, but I wanted to give my thanks to the committee, and the Senedd more generally, for their scrutiny of the single-use plastics Bill, given that it is proceeding on a fast-track timetable.
I'd like to turn now to the UK legislation, and I recognise the comments that have been made and I will try to address them, perhaps supplementing some of the points I wanted to make. Our fundamental position remains that legislation in devolved areas should be made in Wales. However, there continue to be circumstances where provisions in UK Bills can be sensible and advantageous, provided that this does not result in any transfer of powers or responsibility and always retains the constitutional ability of the Government and the Senedd to legislate at a time more suited to, and appropriate to, our priorities and the legislative programme. We are committed, as a Government, to ensuring that our involvement with UK Bills remains consistent with our principles and to ensuring that this Senedd is afforded as much scrutiny as possible through the legislative consent memorandum process.
It is extremely rare that we would proactively approach the UK Government to legislate on our behalf; on the contrary, there has been an unacceptable number of instances in recent years of the UK Government introducing devolved provision before Parliament, of which we have had no prior sight. This has been a recurring issue in the current UK Parliament's session. This lack of engagement with the UK Government and with the Welsh Government is a major obstacle to the effective operation of the current legislative consent process. I recognise that it is a part of the nature of the committee that it operates almost in a non-partisan way because of its function as a constitution and legislative committee, and that point is actually recognised. I think there is criticism of the UK Government, just as there are criticisms, as are appropriate, to be made, as part of the scrutiny process by the committee, and I think that shows the maturity of the way the committee has been developed within our parliamentary structure.
So, we'll continue to call upon the UK Government to improve its engagement with us in relation to its legislative programme, with a view to, in turn, maximising the Senedd's scrutiny ability. I just want to add a few comments on that, because I fully recognise the issues that exist with regard to the LCM process. Of course, we do not control the UK Government's legislative programme, and, of course, the number of LCMs is not a matter that is determined by us, but is actually determined by the impact of those pieces of legislation itself. We have to respond, whether consent is given or not given, and I would just make the point, of course, that consent isn't given by the Welsh Government—it is, actually, a recommendation from the Welsh Government, but it ultimately comes to the floor of the Senedd.
But, the points you make with regard to scrutiny are right, and I think they are a fundamental part of the dysfunction of our constitutional arrangement, which does not properly contain, I think, a federalised, constitutional, parliamentary structure that enables a very different process to the development and initiation of legislation. A system where the drive of an enormous amount of UK legislation can almost dominate the entire legislative processes of devolved nations isn't the right way of going about it, and there are clearly constitutional lessons that have to be learnt there.

Mick Antoniw AC: I welcome the committee’s conclusions on improvement to the legislative consent processes and hope we can continue to work collaboratively to further strengthen the Senedd’s ability to scrutinise legislation and collectively defend the devolution settlement. The UK Government’s repeated breaches of the Sewel convention are unacceptable and they display, I think, a lack of respect for this democratically elected institution and the people it represents. The First Minister and I expressed our deep concern at the inaugural meeting of the Interministerial Standing Committee in March and again at the meeting in June, and we called for the codification of the convention and the strengthening of reporting mechanisms to respective Parliaments. Since then, officials from all four Governments have been looking at the convention and principles for future working. Of course, the only way to conclusively protect the devolution settlement and safeguard the future of the United Kingdom is, in my view, to place the convention on a statutory and justiciable footing, and this is something that we continue to strongly pursue. As a Welsh Government, we will also do what we can to ensure that this legislature gets the opportunity to properly scrutinise UK legislation that engages the Sewel convention and requires our consent.
But late engagement from UK Government can bring extreme time pressures to this. The emergency energy Bill was a case in point. Early and effective engagement between the Welsh Government and the UK Government is essential in all areas of policy, but where the UK Government is going to propose legislation, this is absolutely vital. These are not small matters, and the UK Government must recognise the legitimate and sometimes time-consuming detailed analysis that the Welsh Government and this institution must undertake. It is also fair to say that inter-governmental relationships have not been strong over the last few months. The instability within UK Government has prevented full meaningful engagement and progress in many areas. But we now have a new Prime Minister and a new Cabinet. We are committed to building positive working relationships where we can, and now is the moment to reset those relationships and take a fresh look together at the challenging issues, including the cost-of-living crisis. For that, we need genuine, open engagement. The mechanisms agreed as part of the review of inter-governmental relations can take us some way, and I know that the committee has been monitoring how those mechanisms are actually working on the ground. So, it is clearly vital that we work to embed the new structures, but inter-governmental relations go beyond set-piece meetings and cannot be measured solely by the number of meetings that take place. So, all Governments must adhere to the spirit as well as the letter of the inter-governmental review.
Just a few comments, to finish, on justice. I’ve been very pleased to attend the committee to discuss matters pertaining to justice. The Welsh Government is absolutely clear that we agree with Lord Thomas’s conclusions that the justice system lets down the people of Wales and that justice should be devolved. We explore these issues in more detail in our ‘Delivering Justice for Wales’ report, which the Minister for Social Justice and I launched in May, and it provides the basis for further engagement. Justice is another area where the chaos that has riven the UK Government has had an impact on the progress we’ve been able to make. So, whilst recognising that the two Governments’ fundamental positions differ, we have sought to make changes where we can, and this has proved especially difficult with such a regularly and rapidly changing ministerial team in the Ministry of Justice. I think there have been, rather unbelievably, nine different justice Secretaries since the Conservatives came to power.
So, we'll continue to work with the UK Government to make positive changes, even if they fall at the margins, and there are good things to report with good examples, I believe, of collaborative working on justice within Wales. There are projects happening or in the pipeline that are already welcome and interesting. I know I’ve commented on some of these before, whether that’s the family drug and alcohol court pilot in Cardiff and the Vale of Glamorgan, the Grand Avenues pilot in Caerau and Ely, or the women’s pathfinder whole-system approach and the 18 to 25 diversionary service. Now, none of these things will address the fundamental failings that I think we are increasingly identifying. This Government has made it clear that our commitment is to the devolution of policing and justice, and it is a commitment that we will continue to pursue because it is about the better delivery of policing and justice. In the meantime, I welcome the committee's engagement with these issues, and particularly its intention to pursue attendance from Ministry of Justice Ministers.
So, in drawing to a close, Dirprwy Lywydd, I'd like again to pay my tribute to the committee for their work across a particularly broad remit, and for publishing such a thorough and detailed annual report. I hope that we get to a stage where we do not have to go through the detail of the retained EU law Bill, but that's something that, unfortunately, I suspect we will have to do. Diolch yn fawr.

I call now on Huw Irranca-Davies, the Chair, to reply to the debate.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Diolch, Llywydd, and in my short response here, can I just first of all thank the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution for the serious, thoughtful and considered way in which he's responded to this debate, and it typifies his approach to the broad remit of the work of this committee? We really welcome that. And on that basis, can I first of all turn to the comments from current and former members of this committee? Comment was made by Peter Fox that people on this committee have parked their political allegiances outside the door, and they come in and they look at the evidence, and they look at what needs to be done to have effective scrutiny. And that has been the hallmark of this committee, himself included. But in turning to the remarks by James, you've also typified this response as well, and your challenge that we all put to the UK Government for the sake of the UK to actually engage early and engage meaningfully, to assist not only Welsh Government but actually to assist this Senedd, particularly in legislation that's emanating from the UK. It was a point very well made, and it was great to hear you say once again that primary idea, the primary principle of Welsh law for Welsh people, made here, scrutinised here is what we're trying to do by default.
Alun, I very much welcome your contribution and the comment that you made about impacting on the Sewel convention, this sledgehammer approach that's being taken where there is non-consent after non-consent after non-consent. At what point—the question has been raised not just by us but the House of Lords committee and House of Commons committee—does Sewel actually break, or how do we codify it in a way and strengthen it, as the Counsel General was saying, that actually makes it matter for these modern times? And the transparency on inter-governmental and inter-parliamentary scrutiny is going to become increasingly important, and the work that the committee has been doing on engaging on an inter-parliamentary level to actually hold to account the inter-governmental machinery that's now put in place, it holds real potential, I think.
Can I also thank Peter for your contribution and for your thanks that you made to the outstanding secretariat that we do have? They're a small team but they are genuinely exemplary. And also, the focus you had on the better inter-governmental work, and for the good again of making the UK, as it currently is, work better, and it's not simply to do with words such as 'respect'; it's actually mechanisms we put in place and the transparency we put in place around it. So, thank you, Peter, for your contribution to the committee.
And it would be remiss of me, Llywydd, not to mention two other contributors to the work of this committee over the last year and the period this reports as well. Rhys ab Owen, thanks for his contribution to the committee on all matters, but especially, I have to say, with his specialism on justice matters as well. And also, we shouldn't forget, as well, Jayne Bryant for her work early on.
Minister, just in my closing thoughts here in response to what was a great and comprehensive response to our committee report, and looking forward as well, we do want to look forward, curiously; we're looking back at a period here, and you rightly said that this has been a challenging context, these times—the post-Brexit times, the pandemic times. It's meant that we have, of necessity, had a certain focus on much of our bread-and-butter work, and we get that. There's also been a need to respond to LCMs that have either been initiated at a UK level, or ones that you've identified that you want to leap on to.But you will understand, as a former Chair of this committee, that we can never resile from that basic premise of saying that we want to see, by default, made-in-Wales legislation where this Senedd can get its teeth into that legislation, rather than be at a distance from it where we cannot seriously influence it, and also that we take a dim view of an Executive, either here or up at Westminster, taking powers unto itself. We have to be the ultimate scrutineers on this. But we do want to move on going ahead to what I think are really exciting times with the consolidation Bill that we're currently looking at, which is going to be groundbreaking in terms of the UK, and we will help you to get that right. We'll work constructively with you. We may have to look at the EU retained law, but we'll see what will happen with that, but that will be a heck of a workload.
We will continue to look at the impact of the TAC on devolved areas, across that range of devolved areas we have. We want to be more proactive on the work we can do on justice and a range of other matters as well, but, to do that, we need to free up some time and thinking space to do it. At the moment, the workload is immense. But my thanks to all those who've contributed, to current and former members of this committee, to our small but excellent secretariat, and at the risk of—. We're going to avoid making you an honorary member of the committee, but you do seem to be in front of us every other week, and we do appreciate that. We'll continue to challenge, Counsel General, you and other Ministers, but we're doing it, please understand, for the right reasons. We're doing it for the sake of this Senedd and the role that we all play. Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

8. Plaid Cymru Debate: Global impact of domestic consumption

The following amendment has been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Darren Millar.

The next item will be the Plaid Cymru debate on the global impact of domestic consumption, and I call on Delyth Jewell to move the motion.

Motion NDM8121 Siân Gwenllian
To propose that the Senedd: 
1. Notes: 
a) that the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 requires Wales to establish itself as a globally responsible nation; 
b) that more than 50 per cent of global forest loss and land conversion is attributable to the production of agricultural commodities and forestry products demanded by consumers; 
c) that an area equivalent to 40 per cent of the size of Wales is used overseas to grow just a handful of commodities imported into Wales (palm, soy, beef, cacao, natural rubber, leather, timber, paper and pulp); and 
d) that vast areas abroad are being destroyed to create commodities bound for Wales, with disastrous consequences including the abuse of indigenous peoples, child labour, and the loss of biodiversity. 
2. Calls on the Welsh Government to: 
a) account for and report on the significant greenhouse gas emissions caused by Wales overseas as a result of the deforestation and habitat loss associated with Welsh imports of commodities;  
b) strengthen its economic contract—which develops a relationship with business around responsible growth and practices—to require signatories to commit to supply chains that are free from deforestation, conversion and social exploitation; 
c) develop a more self-sufficient food system for Wales by developing a roadmap towards a food system that’s fit for the future and provides communities with a sustainable source of food which would include:
(i) reversing the loss of local processing capacity;
(ii) driving local supply chains;
(iii) prioritising importing only sustainable goods from overseas; and
(iv) helping to address food poverty and malnutrition.
d) use procurement levers to create a requirement for supply chains to be free from deforestation, conversion and social exploitation, as part of the transition to utilising locally produced and sustainable goods; 
e) support Welsh farmers to eliminate imported livestock feed that is linked to deforestation and habitat conversion overseas;
f) support international projects and initiatives aimed at preserving and restoring forests in the main commodity-producing countries; and
g) ensure that it promotes new trade agreements that will guarantee high environmental and human rights standards, particularly around deforestation, accompanied by strict enforcement measures.

Motion moved.

Delyth Jewell AC: Diolch, Llywydd. This debate is about the responsibility we hold for the actions we take and the reverberations of that responsibility as they stretch and swell across the globe. It is a debate about the impact of our actions, the consequences that our consumption habits have on people and places on the other side of our planet, and it is a debate about choices—the choices we all have, whether we're aware of them or not, to do things differently—and the choices that Governments have to empower their citizens to make those choices wisely. I use the word 'wisely' because George Bernard Shaw said,
'We are made wise not by the recollection of our past, but by the responsibility for our future.'
It's that future that I'd like us all, in this debate, to keep at the front and centre of our thoughts, because wisdom can only truly percolate through when we are learning not just from something but for that future. So, what responsibility does Wales hold? The Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 requires Wales to establish itself as a globally responsible nation. That means that, as well as taking actions here in Wales that will help people's lives in our nation, we need to be mindful of how our supply chains entangle and strangle other nations, how the choices we make about the things we eat and wear and invest in, how all of these things, have ripple effects that swell and grow into a tidal wave of waste, of ruin, of trauma in other parts of our world. We may not see their effects, but that does not make them any less real or terrible in its truest sense.
There is a sickness in our society—the sickness of indifference, the comfortable contempt we show towards that which is out of our line of sight. Each of us like to think that we do our thing, that we do our own best things for the planet, but how many of us use soap or cosmetics made with palm oil? How many of the desserts we eat contain cocoa that's not fair trade or ethically sourced? How much of the livestock feed we use for animals is leading to the extinction of other species of animals in other parts of the world, like the northern tiger, wildcats in South America, orangutans in Sumatra? Our everyday choices, insignificant as they may seem in isolation, set events in motion and they blow open the quietly catastrophic effects felt by that insidious sense of 'out of sight, out of mind'.
Llywydd, we cannot stay blind to these effects any longer. I'll set out some of the starkest statistics, and much of this comes from the fantastic 'Wales and Global Responsibility' report, commissioned by Size of Wales, WWF Cymruand RSPB Cymru. Their findings include that an area equivalent to 40 per cent of Wales's land mass, 823,000 hectares, was used overseas to grow Welsh imports of cocoa, palm, beef, leather, natural rubber, soy, timber, pulp and paper in an average year between 2011 and 2018. Much of this land—30 per cent of it—is in countries at high or very high risk of deforestation, species extinction or social issues like child labour and abuse of indigenous people's rights. The process of converting this land overseas and destroying those habitats results in 1.5 million tonnes of carbon dioxide every year—the equivalent of 4 per cent of Wales's total domestic and imported goods carbon footprint.
I worry often, Llywydd, that, in these debates, when Members reel off statistics, people switch off. Our brains can't process that amount of horror, of devastation. So, as well as those statistics, I'll say this: people's lives are being destroyed by our greed and our stubborn refusal to change our habits, and the blood in our supply chains stains the conscience of the world, but very few consumers will be aware of any of this. Powers over labelling rest with the UK Government, and they do need to act to empower people to understand all of this.
But there's a great deal that the Welsh Government can and should be doing as well. In our debate, we'll set out why the Welsh Government must strengthen the economic contract by developing relationships with businesses around responsible growth and ethical practices, requiring signatories to commit to using supply chains that are free from deforestation and social exploitation. Luke Fletcher will set out this in greater detail. All of us in Wales have a part to play. We each need to reduce our dependence on imported commodities that drive this deforestation. Businesses need to be supported to localise their supply chains. Mabon ap Gwynfor will set out how this can be done through a robust community food strategy.
The fragility of global supply chains has been highlighted by Brexit, the Ukraine war and the cost-of-living crisis. Our way of living is not sustainable. But those people in other parts of the world, their ways of living will simply cease if we don't change how we act, which is what Heledd Fychan will focus her remarks on.
Wales and the world is at a crossroads in history. The UN has warned that, if we don't change course on climate change, we risk creating an unliveable planet. Now, we in Wales have led the way by declaring both climate and nature emergencies. Those words are important, and we are taking steps towards net zero by 2035 through the co-operation agreement, but, by that date, if we only change the things that we can see in our own nation, in front of our own eyes, we will have casually permitted vast injustices to be perpetrated in our name. That is not the legacy we should leave for future generations. I look forward to hearing the debate.

I have selected the amendment to the motion, and I call on Janet Finch-Saunders to move amendment 1.

Amendment 1—Darren Millar
Add as new sub-point at end of point 2:
introduce a local food and drink charter to encourage shops, cafés and restaurants to sell locally sourced rather than imported food and drink.

Amendment 1 moved.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Diolch, Llywydd, and thank you to Plaid Cymru and Delyth Jewell for bringing forward this really important and serious debate. We know that COVID-19 highlighted serious weaknesses that already existed in our food system. While some dairy farmers were pouring milk down the drain, we had many empty supermarket shelves, even in the dairy section. However, the pandemic started a brilliant buy local food momentum: instead of travelling to big supermarkets, many residents across Wales have turned to their local village farm shops and butchers. There's absolutely no better way to support farmers and Welsh produce than us, the people of Wales, buying Welsh.
As the amendment in the name of Darren Millar shows, I would like to see the development of a local food charter, which all shops, cafes, restaurants and bars selling food local to the area could sign up to, helping consumers to know which businesses are actually not only stocking local food, but supporting local food producers. It would be a simple system, like the food hygiene rating score on the door. It would empower customers to know whether the business they are about to enter procures local Welsh produce.
At the end of the day, we need to act more responsibly, because it is estimated that, if the world consumed the same amount as the average Welsh citizen, 2.5 planets' worth of resources would be required. Plaid Cymru, you are quite correct that the future generations Act requires Wales to establish itself as a global, responsible nation. Ask yourselves, Members: are we acting as a globally responsible nation if an area equivalent to 40 per cent of the size of Wales is required overseas to grow Welsh imports of cocoa, palm oil, beef, leather, natural rubber, soy, timber, pulp and paper in an average year? Thirty per cent of the land used to grow Welsh imports of commodities is in countries categorised high or very high risk of social and deforestation issues. The greenhouse gas emissions associated with the conversion of natural ecosystems and changes in land cover for the production of Welsh imports of soy, cocoa, palm and natural rubber total 1.5 million tonnes of carbon dioxide equivalent each year. So, to put this into perspective, Welsh timber imports use a land area two and a half times the size of Ynys Môn, Anglesey; Welsh palm imports use a land area greater than Wrexham county; Welsh soy imports use a land area greater than the size of Monmouthshire; and Welsh paper and pulp imports use a land area the size of Ceredigion.
What we have is a perfect storm. Whilst Welsh Government and, in some instances, now supported by Plaid Cymru—. Some agricultural policies, such as the Wales-wide water regulations and 10 per cent tree-planting requirements, will drive down some food production in Wales. It also makes us more reliant on imports. Already, Welsh beef imports use a land area the size of the Brecon Beacons. A globally responsible Wales cannot pursue policies that unnecessarily cause an increase in reliance on goods from around the world that is destroying our planet. The Welsh Government should account for and report on the significant greenhouse gas emissions caused by Wales overseas.
Alongside backing Welsh food production, we need to support our farmers to develop their businesses so there is less reliance on imported soy. Soy, in the form of meal and beans for livestock feed, equates to, well, almost 60 per cent and 20 per cent of total imports. The Welsh poultry industry is estimated to be responsible for consuming 48 per cent of Wales's imported soy feed for livestock. So, Minister, it would help if you could outline what steps you are taking, with the relevant Minister here as well, to work with our farmers to maybe procure some alternative feed. For example, canola, an oilseed meal, peas and beans, brewer-spent grains and insect meal have been identified as some of the most promising soybean meal alternatives.
Minister, you said that the WWF's report on Wales's global responsibility was shocking and that you were determined to change the existing procurement policy. The Deputy Minister, Lee Waters, claimed at COP26 that it provided the opportunity for regional governments to work together. COP27 is now taking place and Wales is still not acting as a globally responsible nation. By backing this motion and my little amendment today, we can learn from the past and we can also help to lead the way forward in having a food system that is fair for all. We can co-operate to build on the brilliant buy local food momentum in Wales. Diolch, Plaid Cymru. Diolch, Llywydd.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: I thank Delyth for moving the motion. Now, for such rural country, it seems strange that we, as a nation, import agricultural commodities and forestry products from countries all over the globe, but that's the truth, of course. From fertiliser to feed to construction timber and much more, a large number of these commodities are produced in other countries. And each of these countries has different levels of risk when it comes to deforestation or social risks, such as child labour or forced labour. Indeed, the footprint of Welsh imports from abroad is equivalent to 823,000 hectares.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: It was Martin Luther King Jr. who said, 'Before you finish eating breakfast in the morning, you've depended on half the world.' Our daily actions, the decisions we take, and the way we decide to spend our money have far-reaching consequences for other countries and people across the globe, as Delyth mentioned at the top of this debate. Estimates show that we would need over 1.7 Earths to keep up with our current level of growth and consumption.
Let's look at some commodities that link our agricultural sector to the wider world. Firstly, soy. We import just shy of 200,000 tonnes of soy every year. For this soy to grow, it uses up nearly 95,000 hectares of land. That's equivalent to an area larger than Monmouthshire, as Janet referred to. As we heard from Janet, soy is mostly imported into Wales in the form of meal and beans for livestock, with the Welsh poultry industry driving almost half of our soy feed consumption. But what we didn't hear was that nearly three quarters of the soy import-land footprint falls in countries that are at high or very high risk of deforestation and/or social issues, including Paraguay, Brazil, and Argentina.
Now let's look at timber. In an average year, we import 768,000 cu m of wood raw material equivalent. Timber accounts for the largest land footprint of Welsh commodity imports. The average land area required each year to answer the Welsh demand for timber is 184,000 hectares. This is an area, as we heard, equivalent to two and a half times the size of Ynys Môn. The Welsh Government has laudable aims for tree planting, but compared to the trees felled to answer our consumption needs, those ambitions will barely make a dent. A fifth of the timber import-land footprint falls in countries that are at high risk for deforestation and/or social issues, including Brazil, Russia and China. Our timber consumption is actively driving the destruction of habitats, of native culture, and of the world's lungs.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: So, what should be done? Well, as Saint David said, we should do the little things. In order to reduce our dependence on imports that are driving climate change and the nature emergency, we must ensure that our supply chains are local, and in order to do that we need to develop a solid local food strategy.
There are many examples of successful community food initiatives, and at a time when we are living in a cost-of-living crisis, with thousands dependent on foodbanks and with climate change happening before our very eyes, then we must develop a strategy that works not only for us, but for our brothers and sisters across the world.
Consider the great work that's being done by Y Dref Werdd in Blaenau Ffestiniog, which is working on a local food growing project, and is collaborating with the Llandrillo Menai Group to hold cooking sessions, teaching people how to prepare nutritious food. Antur Aelhaearn in Llanaelhaearn has also been developing similar projects, and if you had gone there a few months ago, you would have been able to enjoy a feast of vegetables from the community garden. There are similar examples across the country, but we need to support them and enable others to emulate them.
There is enormous potential here for growing food locally. That's why we're calling here today for the development of a more self-sustaining food system, ensuring that sustainable products are being developed in every community, and that we are not overly dependent on importing materials.
This would mean reversing the losses we have seen in the ability to process food locally; driving the local supply chain forward; prioritising imports of only sustainable materials from abroad; and helping to solve the problems of malnutrition and poverty that are endemic in some communities. Thank you.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I thank Plaid for this motion, to coincide with COP27, and also for the passion with which Delyth Jewell introduced the debate. I also want to pay tribute to the excellent and blessedly short report by Shea Buckland-Jones on behalf of WWF, which really does summarise exactly how we are not taking account of our global responsibilities and our need not to continue exploiting countries of the global south, with all the unacceptable consequences of impoverishing local communities who cannot afford to feed themselves, ironically, whilst continuing to grow nice-to-have commodities for us in the global north.
So, it isn't just in relation to our carbon emissions, it's also in relation to our food that we need to have a just transition, so that we are supporting the poorest in the world and living much more lightly on this earth, changing our food habits and equally eating—I agree completely with Mabon—locally grown seasonal food instead of relying on food from abroad. We have to be mindful, however, that we shouldn't do this too abruptly, because some people are relying on selling us food from abroad in order to earn a living, but we have to have transitional arrangements to enable them to grow more of their own food and enrich their diet whilst we import only food that we see as luxuries, rather than relying on it.
We have seen all too often these days that relying on just-in-time food imports—their days are numbered, in any case. The combination of Brexit, the climate emergency and increasing tensions and conflicts between and within different countries means that food security issues are staring us in the face. In any case, fresh food, produced locally, tastes better and is more nutritious than food that has been prematurely picked and sprayed with wax or chemicals in order to make it look good once it has been transported across the world. So, we really do need to focus on growing food locally.
We are committed to delivering net zero as Wales's contribution to averting the global climate disaster, and that requires huge changes for all of us. And reducing our carbon emissions from food is something we can all play our part in, because whilst it's our job to scrutinise Welsh Government on how quickly Wales can decarbonise its industry, its transport emissions and public buildings, that is not something that ordinary householders are going to be able to influence. Where they can make a real contribution is in what we eat, because I learned recently, and it was a really important message, that it's not vehicle use, it's not home heating, not even holiday flights that are at the top of the list of carbon emissions in individual homes; according to research for the Brecon Beacons National Park, it's household carbon emissions from food and drink that generate more than twice the carbon emissions we create from holiday travel.
So, I recently attended a conference organised by the Landworkers Alliance Cymru, where I heard plenty of evidence that regenerative agriculture is profitable without any public subsidy. That's worth repeating: without any public subsidy. One speaker reported that one acre can feed 50 families, another reported feeding 150 households on nine acres. And it creates jobs, too. It varies quite a lot, but generally it would appear that each acre of land can generate one job. So, if we had a proper training scheme for people to develop a career in horticulture, we could quickly start to deliver the food we need for our free school meals programme locally and not bring it in from outside Wales. We are blessed with people like Castell Howell who are dedicated to this campaign as well, but we are still doing far too much buying food from outside Wales, which means that the profits all leave Wales.
So, both the Agriculture (Wales) Bill and the public procurement aspects of the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Bill offer great opportunities to really deliver the change we need to make our ambitious universal free school meals programme affordable, as a springboard for the whole nation to eat healthier, better food, even in the teeth of this cost-of-living crisis. So, I really do hope that we can get better funding for trainees to ensure that school leavers really understand that there is a really exciting career in horticulture, and that is one of the growth industries that we need to be developing.

Heledd Fychan AS: Wales has a long history of internationalism. Solidarity movements have existed for generations, with communities as far afield as Somaliland, as we know from Wales's coal-trading history and long-settled diaspora; Lesotho, through Dolen Cymru, founded in 1982, which after all was the world's first nation-to-nation twinning; and Uganda, where several charities have worked over four decades.
Let's take the Wales for Africa programme as a prime example. The programme connects professionals in health, education and the environmental sectors and diaspora in Wales and Africa, and harnesses the power of community-based collaborative civil society links. Rather than professional agencies or staff in country offices, projects take place through volunteers in direct contact with in-country local partners, in domains such as health, education, climate change and water. Wales for Africa catalyses huge amounts of community work here in Wales, raising awareness and funds at a local level, and Welsh Government funding of course has supported this through capacity building; the co-ordination of Wales’s fair trade movement, with Wales becoming the world's first Fairtrade Nation in 2008; efforts to mitigate climate change, including the Size of Wales project to help protect an area of rainforest the size of Wales; and volunteer placements for professionals.
So, we do understand here in Wales the benefits of working collaboratively at the international level to help our fellow people abroad, but with the contributions of my fellow Members in mind, can we really, honestly, hand on heart, state that we're making a net positive contribution to the world, when our consumption at the domestic level is actively driving climate change, biodiversity decline and the loss of culture? How can we simultaneously preach for sustainability and cultural preservation here in Wales while contributing to what amounts to cultural and environmental genocide in lands afar?
Let's look again to another case study—one championed by the Size of Wales—the cause of the Guarani people. The Guarani are one of the largest groups of indigenous people in Latin America, and their ancestral territory sits in the Atlantic forest in Brazil, only 7 per cent of which remains intact. The Atlantic forest still holds about 5 per cent of the world's biodiversity, and it provides water to around 67 per cent of the Brazilian population. They nourish, protect and respect the land, plants, animals and insects, regarding their lives as equal, and they never seek to gain dominion and power over nature or exploit it. Despite the forest suffering huge levels of deforestation, vegetation cover within legally recognised Guarani land stands at nearly 100 per cent, exemplifying the fact that indigenous peoples are the best guardians of the world’s forests.
But consumption patterns at the domestic level cast a long, dark shadow on these indigenous cultures abroad. Powerful economic forces are threatening the few lands the Guarani have been able to defend, and preventing them from demarcating and protecting the remainder of their ancestral home, through things like mineral ore production and large-scale infrastructure projects. Indeed, Guarani territories are currently threatened by up to 178 million hectares of legal deforestation on private land, and up to 115 million hectares of illegal deforestation in currently protected indigenous territories: a total area of more than 12 times the size of the United Kingdom. These threats were driven at least in part by the damaging premiership of Jair Bolsonaro, which was characterised by corruption, greed and extreme lack of regard for indigenous rights and the rights of the natural world.
But the degradation of habitats is driven by a much more fundamental behaviour, which is consumption. We are responsible for some of this consumption-derived damage, and we need to be honest about that. As a nation, we have tried to atone for our past crimes, such as our role in colonialism and empire among them, but we've also had a role to play in global climate change, in habitat loss, and our behaviour today is still driving deforestation abroad; an extractive economic relationship built on greed that destroys native cultures and habitats.
So, we urge the Welsh Government to support international projects and initiatives aimed at preserving and restoring forests in the main commodity, and in responding to the debate, I hope that the Minister can outline how Welsh Government intends to achieve these aims to ensure that Wales is a globally responsible nation, not just for the climate, but for people and their cultures too.

Peter Fox AS: I thank Plaid for bringing forward this debate. It's certainly a very interesting and certainly very important motion, and I welcome the opportunity to discuss an issue that perhaps gets overlooked when we discuss climate change, and that's how our consumption here in Wales affects people and communities from across the world as well as hindering efforts to combat climate change. Such issues have been raised during the development of my food Bill and have helped to inform some of the provisions within it. Presiding Officer, I won't share too much about my Bill at the moment—I'm sure Members across the Chamber are highly anticipating its introduction into the Chamber next month—but the Bill will look at placing the impact of the Welsh food system on our environment as well as on the global environment at the heart of the decision-making process through the establishment of food goals.
Now, of course, as Delyth points out, global responsibility is one of seven well-being goals set out in the well-being of future generations Act. There is an expectation that public bodies should already take into account the impact of their decisions on the wider world. But as the motion rightly states, more can be done, indeed must be done, to better account for this. And, yes, we are part of a global system of production and consumption, but we have an opportunity to be a leader here in Wales. This is why my future Bill will look to strengthen the governance around the food system further, as one element of increasing accountability within the wider system, meaning we are able to focus more on establishing what the impact of our consumption is and how to mitigate this. I listened with great interest to the leader of Plaid Cymru yesterday in his question to the leader of the house about the need for a food commission. However, Presiding Officer, we will have more opportunity to talk about this, but I'm sure that Plaid will see that many of the points raised in point 2(c) of its motion interact with my Bill.
So, what else can we do to reduce environmental impacts of our consumption? The motion lists some interesting points, such as supporting the agricultural sector to source feed that is more environmentally friendly and does not contribute to deforestation. At this point, I will, of course, refer Members to my register of interests as a farmer. We also need to look at localising food supply chains, which has already been mentioned, and identify opportunities to produce more of what we eat and then helping public bodies to source this produce. I'm interested to know how the Government's public procurement Bill will enable local authorities to build the capacity to source more local produce and to provide opportunities for local producers to get involved with local procurement.
But one thing that we could do and perhaps could have been looked at within the motion before us is how we strengthen the labelling schemes that we have to make it easier for consumers to identify products that have a more positive impact on people and the environment. As part of this, we need to increase the level of data that we collect at both Welsh and UK levels to increase transparency and understanding of the impact of our consumption. So, I'd be interested to hear from Welsh Government how it is working with partners to increase data collection and how we can enhance traceability within supply chains. In conclusion, Presiding Officer, I welcome today's debate, and I support the premise of the motion and certainly support our amendment. Thank you.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Unfortunately for you all, I'm not Luke Fletcher, as described by Delyth, but I do want to explore the economic contract. Through the economic contract, businesses must demonstrate current action in areas such as economic strength and adaptability, fair work, the promotion of well-being and becoming low carbon and climate resilient. Ideally, the economic contract would help see a Wales where organisations are resilient and adapt to changing economic and market conditions, and where they are ready to grow sustainably. Furthermore, we should see that workers are fairly rewarded, heard and represented, secure and able to progress in a healthy, inclusive environment where rights are respected. In this regard, a safe working environment where legal rights are protected would be essential to deliver the goals of the economic contract.
The agreement also rests upon the commitment that businesses must take proactive action to ensure a healthier workforce where physical and mental well-being is maximised, while creating cohesive communities that are attractive, viable, safe and well connected. Furthermore, it requires businesses to promote and protect our vibrant culture, heritage and Welsh language. But, as we've heard, Wales imports agricultural and forest commodities from many countries around the world, many of which cause social risks. We've distanced ourselves from the production process, so we don't always see the impact on businesses that our procurement policies are having. Commodity supply chains supplying Wales in these countries risk child or forced labour, modern slavery and the destruction of vital ecosystems. For this, we ought to hang our heads in shame. How can we claim to want to maximise mental and physical well-being while we drive exploitative labour practices? In what sense are rights respected when children are forced to work so we can have our morning coffee? Are we promoting cohesive communities that are attractive, viable, safe and well connected while we are complicit in destroying acres and acres and acres of forests? The Welsh Government must play its part in ensuring that businesses review their procurement policy and ensure that it includes fair and ethical practices. They should see that organisations review and develop their food policies and procurement contracts to increase product range to include fair, ethical and sustainable fruit juice, snacks and other food, where possible, and include palm-oil-free or sustainable-palm-oil food contracts to ensure that natural habitats are being maintained, as highlighted by Fair Trade Wales.
So, to conclude, the Government need to strengthen the economic contract to require signatories to commit to supply chains that are free from deforestation, conversion and social exploitation. It would be hypocritical of the Government to seek to guarantee fair working practices and sustainable business growth at home while actively contributing to slavery, horrendous working environments and environmental degradation abroad. Diolch yn fawr.

Jane Dodds AS: Thank you to Plaid Cymru for bringing this debate forward, and thank you to Delyth for opening the debate.

Jane Dodds AS: I just want to focus very briefly on one aspect. There's just so much in this, isn't there, and it's so important that we look at this issue. But I just wanted to look at food and farming. The debate that we're having is so important in the light of the development of the agricultural Bill for Wales, at the heart of which we want to see sustainable food production. We're pleased to see that food production is now included as part of the Bill, but still there's some lack of clarity about whether farmers will receive the basic payment for sustainable food production, and it would be great to hear from the Minister and the Government about any intentions around that. We do know that the Welsh Government is serious about reaching their net-zero ambitions, and we should be talking much more about reducing food imports, which we've heard this afternoon, particularly those that carry the highest carbon content. Therefore, we must grow as much as possible of our own food sustainably here in Wales. We need to be invigorating local food networks, and farmers need to be supported to produce food sustainably for local food markets. When I speak to farmers in mid and west Wales, that's their ambition too. They see their role as farmers both as custodians of the land, aware and concerned about the environment, and as food producers. So, I know we all want to work with farmers to realise that ambition of more food produced and consumed here in Wales. As Delyth said, since 2016, the Welsh food and agricultural industry have suffered the impacts of three major challenges: Brexit, COVID-19 and now the cost-of-living crisis. We want to see a bold and radical plan for the Welsh food and agricultural industries from the Welsh Government to make sure that the sector survives and thrives.
It's very important as well about food security, which will be a major challenge, particularly with the Ukraine war. We need to make sure that we shield people—residents and our workers—from that food insecurity, and we need to be reducing our food waste. The Nature Friendly Farming Network estimates that, globally, 30 per cent of total food produced is wasted, and that, in the United Kingdom, food waste amounts to a staggering 9.5 million tonnes, 70 per cent of which is edible and intended for consumption. I've seen in my region communities working together to reduce that food waste through, for example, community fridges. The Hanging Gardens in Llanidloes is one example of those. I'd be interested to hear from the Welsh Government more about what they can do to support the reduction in food waste.
The Farmers Union of Wales for some time have been calling for local food sourcing, and the more the public sector can do to nudge behaviour in the right direction, the better. I hope we are ensuring, for example, that the free-school-meals programme uses as much locally produced and sourced food as possible. Whilst I recognise that it's ultimately local authorities that make their own decisions regarding procurement, I'd be interested to hear from the Welsh Government how to make that potentially a condition of the scheme, so that we properly fund that to use Welsh produce wherever possible.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.

Jane Dodds AS: Thank you, once again, to Plaid Cymru; it's a very important debate. Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd.

I call on the Minister for Climate Change, Julie James.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I want to thank Plaid Cymru for raising this debate today, and I'm very grateful for the opportunity to contribute to it. The Government will be supporting the motion. I would argue that as a globally responsible nation, we, in fact, go quite a bit further than the motion. We clearly support the ambitions reflected in the motion, but the real challenge is in practical implementation, including accepting the need to prioritise, to be consistent in applying our principles and to work in social partnership with businesses and trade unions that find themselves needing to make major changes to their ways of working.
We are very proud of the work we have already been doing to reduce our impact on the planet. Our decision to withdraw support from exporters in fossil fuel overseas and refocus efforts towards new international opportunities in the low carbon and renewable energy sectors is one of many positive steps we have already taken to meet the 'globally responsible Wales' goal. To meet this particular goal of the well-being of future generations Act, we must ensure we take into account the impact of all of our policies in Wales at a global scale. Our work on biodiversity shows clear commitment to this goal, with the Welsh Government fully engaged in COP15 and a key partner in developing a new global biodiversity framework. The recent biodiversity deep-dive has focused on Wales's approach to implementing the target set by the Convention on Biological Diversity to protect at least 30 per cent of the land and 30 per cent of the sea by 2030. Recommendations have been published to support meaningful delivery of the 30x30 goal and immediate actions are being taken forward.
To turn to the second part of the motion, we're in the process of recalculating our own global footprint, which is being taken forward by the Joint Nature Conservation Committee. This work will include the development of a global ecological footprint for Wales and improving our understanding of alignment between the different consumption-based metrics available, particularly in terms of carbon. We will also publish an estimate of Wales's consumption-emissions footprint, both within the UK and abroad.
Our programme for government outlines the need to take action and embed our response to the joint crises in all that we do. Our economic contract supports our vision for a well-being economy that is green, prosperous and equal. We are going further by developing a series of standards, and businesses in Wales are already encouraged to adopt the code of practice on ethical employment in supply chains. The economic contract will, indeed, continue to be a key element in our pursuit of social value, driving social change and global responsibility in our economy.
We have a strategic vision for the food and drink manufacturing and processing industry in Wales, with a new agricultural policy being developed and a food-focused public health policy, 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales’' These policies, alongside other key policies, such as free school meals and public body procurement guidance, collectively form an integrated policy package, all designed around the framework of the well-being of future generations Act.
We absolutely recognise that there is a lot of good work going on at a local level, with many shops and cafes opting for locally sourced food and drink. We want to harvest these efforts and pull together the various activities and support for food at community level by developing a community food strategy. This strategy will also look to empower industry to lead the way in enabling and encouraging shops, cafes and restaurants to sell locally sourced food and drink. Within this context, I'm able to support the amendment in Darren Millar's name as well. We can explore it as part of the work on the community food strategy, working with the industry. As I'm sure he will agree, they can and should lead on a charter of this kind. Through support to the agri-food industry and community food activity we can increase the proportion of Welsh produce consumed in Wales.
We absolutely remain committed to helping address food poverty in Wales. This year we have allocated £4.9 million to tackling food poverty, providing emergency food provision and to support the development of food partnerships that will help tackle the root causes of food poverty. To ensure children from lower-income families do not go hungry during the school holidays, we've announced £11 million of additional support until the end of February half term.
Food touches on each of the well-being of future generations goals. Procurement is therefore a powerful lever to ensure we put greater emphasis on sustainability, ethical sourcing, quality, nutrition, socioeconomic and cultural considerations rather than just cost. We are working with stakeholders to embed sustainability and foundational economy objectives into public sector food procurement. Public sector food procurement spend accounts for some £84 million expenditure a year. This spend relates to what the vulnerable and often frail in society consume on a daily basis, so it needs to be healthy, nutritious and sustainable food. We need to absolutely ensure that it continues to be sustainably sourced. And whilst I absolutely agree we must use public procurement to lever wide change, we should also put this in context: the total public expenditure on food procurement in Wales is similar to the consumer spending at just one major supermarket outlet in Cardiff.
Therefore, to truly address deforestation, as many Members have said, and conversion and social exploitation within supply chains, there needs to be a societal change in food purchasing patterns. This would be seriously advanced if the UK Government would encourage labelling requirements. I do call on Members on the benches opposite to join with us in asking the UK Government to seriously review its current labelling strategy, which is seriously inadequate to assist consumers to buy ethically. As Delyth pointed out very eloquently in her opening remarks, without that, many people who would seek to do the right thing are struggling to understand what it is they're actually buying.
We are very strong on buying certain Welsh produce, such as milk, dairy and meat, but there are also products that are consumed in large volumes in Wales that are produced in relatively small quantities here, such as horticulture, as Jenny has pointed out. There is a substantial opportunity to turn this around, to calibrate supply with demand and to ensure more fruit and vegetables are served in school meals. [Interruption.] Go on, Jenny.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I very much welcome the introduction of the horticulture development and entry-level grants, but at the moment we only produce a quarter of a portion per person per day of fruit and veg, so that is a very long road to travel. How can you accelerate the change that we need in order to have much more of our fruit and veg, which is supposed to be a third of our diet, made in Wales?

Julie James AC: Thank you. I completely agree. I will not have time to go through all of the detail of that, but pockets of innovation do show what is possible for wholesalers and civil society organisations working with local producers and growers to help develop fresh, healthy dishes for schools.

Minister, I don't know if you saw the request for an intervention from the leader of the opposition as well.

Julie James AC: I did not, sorry. Go ahead.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Minister. Everyone's supportive of the sentiment today, but you touched on two areas there where you want to increase local procurement—milk and red meat. It is a fact that the processing sectors in both those areas are very limited in Wales. In fact, most of our milk is processed in English dairies. How is the Government going to halt the decline and actually increase investment in processing capacity to meet the sentiment that has been expressed broadly this afternoon?

Julie James AC: Yes, absolutely, Andrew. I will not have time to go through every single policy that's been mentioned in a very broad motion, but I completely accept the point. One of the big issues for us is to make sure that we extract all of the value from our food supply chain, and in doing so, we help the processors to come to Wales and make use of that product. But apologies—the Deputy Presiding Officer is about to tell me I'm running out of time and I'm yet to get through another half of my speech.

I'll give you a bit more time because of the interventions.

Julie James AC: I might need a little bit more than a bit more.
The sustainable farming scheme proposals contain a raft of actions designed to support farmers in the ongoing sustainable production of food alongside addressing the climate and nature emergencies. Sustainable farming is indeed the key to our future. We already have world-leading standards of sustainability within our red meat sector through our pasture-based methods of production, and in response to the shortfall in domestically produced protein for animal feed, the Growing for the Environment scheme will be a pilot to encourage the growing of crops and pastures that provide environmental benefits, such as protein crops. We do, of course, need to ensure that our farmers play their part in combating both the climate and the nature emergencies too, and in doing so, we need to encourage them to get the best out of their crops. So, that's partly in answer to that, Andrew—I was coming on to it. I haven't got time to go into it in enough depth—apologies.
Through our Wales and Africa programme, we have been able to demonstrate our commitment to being a globally responsible nation by supporting a number of tree-growing projects in sub-Saharan Africa. We know that by protecting and planting trees, be it in Wales or further afield, we can make a significant contribution to the fight against catastrophic climate change and deforestation. There are global concerns, which is why the Welsh Government provides support to Size of Wales and other Welsh organisations with campaigns and projects being delivered in Africa, working in partnership with a number of countries on their tree-growing initiatives. Foremost amongst these is the Mbale tree programme in eastern Uganda, where our partners have now distributed over 20 million trees, working towards a target of 50 million by 2030.
To conclude today, turning to trade as part of our responsibility to act as a globally responsible nation, we've been clear with the UK Government that no trade agreement should ever undermine our economic domestic policies. In Wales, we do not view trade deals in purely economic terms. Elements of trade deals that could advance protections around labour and the environment, including deforestation, are treated as one of our main priorities. Whilst we have the power to make representations to the UK Government during trade negotiations—and we do so frequently—the power to negotiate the trade deals themselves ultimately lies with the UK Government. We do not have the final say on deals, but we continue to push the UK Government hard to ensure that trade deals contain provisions that work in both the interests of Wales and in the interests of Wales as a globally responsible nation. Diolch.

I call on Delyth Jewell to reply to the debate.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you to everyone who's participated in this valuable and important debate this evening.

Delyth Jewell AC: This was an incredibly timely debate. WWF have brought out a report today that warned that deforestation in the Amazon is accelerating to the point of no return, so I really do welcome everyone's enthusiasm for this debate.
Janet, you helped us to visualise on the map of Wales the impact of our consumption habits. I'm happy to confirm that we would support the Conservative amendment. Thank you for your contribution.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you, Mabon. That Martin Luther King quote says it all, and thank you for setting out how the agricultural sector can be part of the solution to this situation.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you, Jenny, for setting out the contrast between the 'nice to have' habits that we have and the threat to life itself in many places, and talking about the changes we all need to make through our diets.
Heledd's contribution, I think, was really important in contextualising this in the context of global solidarity, talking about the Guarani people and the cultures at risk because of our indifference. What could be lost will not come back, and the world would be so much the poorer for it.
Peter Fox's comments about his legislation were very interesting, very timely, and I'm sure that we'll all really look forward to reading more about that. I agree with your point, Peter, about the labelling. It is a reserved matter to Westminster, and I really do echo what the Minister was saying and what you as well, Peter, were saying: this is something that really needs to be looked at. We need to empower people to make the right decisions. 
Diolch, Pred. My apologies for mixing up Peredur with Luke; it's because of the beards. But seriously and sincerely, thank you for setting out what businesses can and must do in the context of all of this.
Diolch, Jane, for your comments about food waste. That is a really horrifying statistic about 30 per cent of food being wasted, particularly considering how much you said is actually still edible.
Thank you, Minister, for your remarks setting out the challenges inherent in doing the right thing. I'm very glad that you're supporting the motion, but, again, I would echo what you were saying about the labelling. This is something where Governments really need to empower people, because there are so many things where everyone wants to do the right thing; it's just making it the easiest way possible for that to happen.
Before we vote on this really important motion, I'd like to just share a few final thoughts with Members. Yesterday, I hosted a youth COP event in the Pierhead. It was organised by Size of Wales, and in the meeting, a room of schoolchildren was addressed by George Sikoyo from the Mount Elgon Tree Growing Enterprise in Mbale, Uganda. George was talking to the children and those of us politicians who were lucky to be in the room about the millions of trees planted in Uganda on behalf of Welsh citizens. He talked about the global problems that we face and how we can help mankind through showing solidarity and friendship. He told those children, 'We are in the same village called Mother Earth.' I hope we can all reflect on George's words. If we can grow trees in other parts of the planet, we shouldn't at the same time be allowing ourselves to contribute directly to trees being cut down and forests being destroyed in another part of that same planet. Our conscience should not allow that dissonance to continue.
There's one final thought I'd like to leave with Members. It centres around the words of John Donne. Perhaps Donne's most famous and most commonly quoted words are his remarks that
'no man is an island, entire of itself',
and that because every man is 'part of the main', each man's death diminishes the writer because he is 'involved in mankind'. Dirprwy Lywydd, no man is an island, but neither is our own island, on the fringes of the north Atlantic, cut off from the main, adrift from its own conscience or consequence. Indifference can blight entire nations too. Donne compels us in the same meditation not
'to send to ask for whom the bell tolls'.
When a bell tolls in this sense, it signals someone's death. Donne is saying that any man's death means that the bell is tolling for all of us.
This debate is premised on the notion that the sounding bell signaling alarm and imminent disaster, which we should each be hearing resounding in our heads—that climate clamour—does not only toll for places on our planet that are beyond our reach, cut off from the main. That alarm bell is a call to all of us as well. The toll the catastrophe will take will have consequences for everyone, because we belong to mankind; we are in 'involved in mankind'. It is a bell that tolls for you and for me as well. I ask you, please, to listen to it.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes; I will, therefore, defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

9. Voting Time

That brings us to voting time. Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will move immediately to voting.
The first vote this evening is on item 8, and I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian. If the proposal is not agreed, we will vote on the amendment tabled to the motion. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 49, no abstentions and none against; therefore, the motion is agreed.

Item 8. Plaid Cymru Debate - Global impact of domestic consumption. Motion without amendment: For: 49, Against: 0, Abstain: 0
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

10. Short Debate: Free period products: The need to legislate to ensure that everyone who needs these products has access, wherever they live in Wales

We now move to the short debate. I call on Heledd Fychan to speak to the topic that she has chosen—Heledd Fychan.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I’d like to thank those of you who will be staying for today's debate. I’d like to confirm that I have given a minute of my time to—

Would the Members leaving do so quietly so that everybody can hear Heledd Fychan's contribution?

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'd like to confirm that I have given a minute of my time to Sioned Williams today.
Every day, around the world, it is estimated that 300 million people bleed due to menstruation. It's a completely normal act—as normal as going to the bathroom—but for far too long, talking about periods has been taboo. Indeed, despite the fact that there has been more open discussion about periods over recent years, it remains something that many people are uncomfortable discussing, and, as such, something that many women and people who have periods feel ashamed of.
This is for a variety of reasons, such as a lack of education regarding periods; a lack of access to water infrastructure, sanitation and hygiene; and above all, a lack of access to appropriate period products. Being able to manage your periods safely, and with confidence and dignity, is crucial not only for health and education, but also for economic development and general equality. Unfortunately, however, even here in Wales in 2022, this is not a right that everyone has, and we have a problem in terms of period poverty.
At the outset, I would liketo acknowledge the work undertaken by the Welsh Government in this regard, including the period dignity strategic action plan and the investment that has been made over recent years in ensuring that more products are available free of charge to those who need them in Wales. I fully support the vision and objectives of the plan, and I welcome the clear and unambiguous statements that the Government has made in this regard. I do not doubt in any way the commitment of the Government or the Minister, and I know that the work in the plan is progressing.
The purpose of this debate, therefore, is to ask the Minister and the Government to go one step further and to make this a commitment that is protected by law, by introducing a specific period products law, such as the one that came into force in Scotland in August this year. I will therefore focus on why I believe that there is a need for this, and I will draw attention to the fact that, despite the Government's commendable work in this area, period poverty remains a problem here in Wales today, and an issue that continues to require attention and action.

Heledd Fychan AS: I’m ashamed to admit that period poverty isn’t something I’d been very aware of prior to becoming a councillor in 2017. It was an issue that was raised by my then fellow Plaid Cymru councillor on Rhondda Cynon Taf council,Elyn Stephens, when she asked us as a group to support a notice of motion that she wanted to submit, urging the council to look into providing free sanitary products in all secondary schools in the county borough, as an acknowledgment that they are as essential as toilet paper for the personal hygiene of female pupils. She spoke openly and bravely about her own experience of not being able to afford products, and what this had meant in terms of her own dignity. She also shared how this also impacted on her, and others she knew, not being able to attend school when they were menstruating, therefore also missing out on education just because of a normal bodily function.
I was a member of the working group set up to look into this issue, and as part of this work, we asked for evidence via a survey from teachers and also from female pupils about the situation as they saw it then. Seven hundred and eighty-four female learners took part in the survey, and focus groups were also held between pupils and the working group to better understand directly what the issues were. They were very, very clear with us that period poverty was an issue, with one attendee stating, 'People miss school because of periods or leave school early if they have an accident or need sanitary products and don’t have them on them—it affects attendance.' This was a view supported by 64 per cent of headteachers, with this rising to 86 per cent of responses from reception staff and 75 per cent for school nurses. So, an acknowledgement that period poverty was having a direct impact on attendance.
Common issues were not knowing where to access free products even if they were available, or being made to feel too embarrassed to ask rather than being able to access them themselves. We also uncovered evidence that there was a huge amount of misinformation and misunderstanding amongst male teachers and young men about periods, with some thinking that you could choose when you bleed, a bit like choosing when you go to the toilet. This meant that girls were being denied permission to go the toilet, resulting in accidents even when they had products to hand, or not being able to access them because they were not allowed to take their bags to the toilet with them.
I’m glad to say that this did lead to a policy change in RCT, and was a contributing factor, I believe, alongside other similar campaigns at the time, that led to Welsh Government committing resources to address the issue too. We have come a long way since then, but though there has been progress, there is more to do, and it’s important that we keep talking about and normalising periods so that progress isn’t lost. And there are many people doing just that.
Many Senedd Members will be aware, I’m sure, of Molly Fenton, who founded the Love Your Period campaign, and is doing so much to break taboos and raise awareness about this issue. I’d like to thank her for her important work, and how she continues to highlight the challenges in ensuring that free products reach those who need them. A recent survey she sent out to students and parents across Cardiff revealed that 97 per cent of pupils hadn’t received essential period products from their schools to help them make it through the summer holidays, meaning that there is still work to be done to make access easier. The products are now available for free, but they're not reaching those who need them.
I’d also like to publicly send my solidarity to Molly, after seeing the comments that were left on a video that she made about her campaign last year for Welsh Government. The attacks were hugely personal and cruel, and Molly was brave enough to reshare and highlight some of them just recently—they were horrific, and I wouldn’t even want to give them air time in this Chamber by repeating them. But all this was just about speaking about period dignity, just about talking about a normal bodily function. And she referenced, in a recent tweet, the song, ‘The Man’ by Taylor Swift, and she simply asked,
'If I was male, people wouldn’t be focusing on how pretty my outfit was, or how it complimented my figure. And that what I’m doing is amazing, instead of being put down for being pushy and out of line. It’s absurd and needs to stop'.
I couldn’t agree more with you, Molly, and I would hope that all Members of the Senedd would join me in condemning those who have criticised her and the campaign, and vow today to support the normalisation of talking about periods.
Period poverty isn’t only something that impacts young people, and I think we also need to acknowledge today the possibility that the cost-of-living crisis will lead to more people who menstruate not being able to access the products they need. Anecdotally, this is something that was shared as a concern in a recent cost-of-living event that I organised in my region, where foodbanks and others reported an increase in demand for period products, as well as other hygiene products. Recent reports also show an increase in the cost of period products, with the mysupermarketcompare website recently showing that a box of 18 Tampax Pearl Compak Super Plus tampons were on sale at one supermarket for £1.95 a few weeks ago, but that now, only a 16-pack is available for £2.60; that’s 65p more for two fewer tampons, or 50 per cent more per tampon.
It's also an issue that impacts refugee women, as highlighted by the Women for Refugee Women charity, which supports women who are seeking asylum in the UK. They found that 75 per cent of women they interviewed struggled to obtain period pads or tampons, forcing them to overuse a period product, improvise period wear, or beg for money to buy a pad. But, as I said earlier, this debate isn’t about trying to persuade the Welsh Government that period poverty is an issue; we are all well aware of this, and I would hope that we are all committed to putting in place actions to help eradicate this issue. Rather, the focus is on the need for them to take that extra step by enshrining this work in law via a period products Bill, as has happened in Scotland.
This was a campaign that was led by the Labour Member of the Scottish Parliament, Monica Lennon, and came into force on 15 August of this year. The aim of the Period Products (Free Provision) (Scotland) Act 2021 is to tackle period poverty, promote period dignity and break the stigma surrounding periods in Scotland. As a result of the Bill, Scotland became the first country in the world to make period products available for free to all, by making it now a legal duty for local authorities, education providers and specified public service bodies to provide products easily available, as well as being free of charge.
Earlier this year, I visited Scotland as part of my work representing the Senedd on the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly, and I was immediately struck by the fact that period products were just as accessible wherever I went as toilet paper was—so, in all public toilets I used, including at the airport. Contrast this to our own Senedd and toilets used by us and staff where there are products available, but in a machine on a wall, meaning that even if you can afford to access them, it isn’t always possible if you don’t have coins. Can you imagine a situation where we would be okay with putting toilet paper in a machine, and asking people to pay for each sheet? There would rightly be outrage. Yet, that’s what happens day in, day out, when it comes to period products in Wales, even in this very building. And that’s what introducing a Bill and legislation has changed in Scotland.

Heledd Fychan AS: Some of you may be wondering why there's a need to legislate on this issue, when we already have a positive action plan in place. Well, as we all know in this Senedd, legislation makes a strong statement that can have a more far-reaching effect on cultural practices and expectations. There are many examples where a legislative change has led to cultural changes that have affected people's everyday lives—issues such as the physical punishment of children, the disposal of plastic bags, wearing a seat belt in the car, and so forth. Setting standards about the way that we would like to live in legislation ensures a stronger, far-reaching message for the future, and it ensures that no-one will have to miss out or feel embarrassed about having a period and needing period products in the future.

Heledd Fychan AS: So my plea to the Minister today is: please continue the great work that you are already doing, but please go that step further by also enshrining the right to free period products, wherever you are in Wales, in law. Action plans are great but can lose momentum when competing with other priorities. This is the only way to fully realise our shared ambition for ensuring period dignity for all. It is all of our responsibility—whether we have periods or not—to help eradicate period poverty. Diolch.

Sioned Williams MS: This isn't only an issue of gender equality, but it's also an issue of social justice. We know that the cost-of-living crisis is affecting women disproportionately, and, according to a recent YouGov survey, one in eight people say they'll struggle to afford period products over the next year. And of course, periods are not a choice, and, for many women, they're a challenge—it affects their health, education, and sometimes their entire lives. Plan International found that 49 per cent of girls have missed at least one full day of school or college due to their period. It's important to note that that statistic is a UK-wide statistic, not Wales-specific. We perhaps do need more data on this, in order to fully address the issues that we've heard about this afternoon. If periods are seen as taboo and not discussed, girls won't feel comfortable asking for period products, and therefore are more likely to stay off school. Free sanitary products in workplace bathrooms can have an impact in terms of reducing absenteeism, because people aren't having to find excuses to go and buy period products or stay home because of their anxiety around having to cope with their period in work. So, periods are normal and natural, they should be a part of everyday school life, work life, and social life, and they should not have a negative effect on your life, wherever you live in Wales.

I call on the Minister for Social Justice to reply to the debate. Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Llywydd. And diolch, Heledd, for bringing forward this important topic for your short debate today. I recall debating period poverty probably about four or five years ago, with Jenny Rathbone, I think—a motion that we jointly promoted—and it was the first time that this had been debated in the devolved Welsh Parliament. It was a breakthrough at the time, that we were debating it, and it led to Government action. And also, thank you for recognising the work that the Welsh Government has done, over a number of years now, on financial initiatives to tackle period poverty, because eradicating period poverty means ensuring that having a period does not lead to missed education, absences from work, or withdrawal, indeed, from sports and social activities. As Sioned Williams has said, this is a matter of social justice.
So, since 2018, we have invested around £12 million to ensure that period products are freely available in schools and colleges across Wales, and in community settings. And during the COVID-19 pandemic, this was extended to allow local councils, local authorities, more flexibility to ensure that products were available for those who needed them, via a variety of means, including issuing vouchers in places in Wales where it was difficult to provide delivery or collection of products. And I recall asking how schools were going to get products, which we were obviously funding and providing, and then making sure that they were available, if not at the school, then in the community.
So thank you also, Heledd, for highlighting the important role of local elected members, including your colleague and yourself—and I recall hearing about that initiative in Rhondda Cynon Taf. And of course, all across Wales now, Members have engaged with this to make sure that the delivery of the products and the investment that we're making is well used. I think it's about working together to make sure that that provision is right. And over the years, we've talked to schools' councils, we've talked to boys as well as girls, we've come together with schools to openly challenge the ignorance and stigma that we've been discussing this afternoon, and, of course, that means engaging the whole school staff, not just the teachers, but the heads and the leadership and all who are engaged.

Jane Hutt AC: In the context, as you say, of the current cost-of-living crisis, the issue of period poverty is starker than ever. So, I am pleased to have increased the period dignity grant by £450,000 this year, to strengthen local authorities' response to the impact of the cost-of-living crisis. Our total period dignity grant for this financial year now totals over £3.7 million. Local authorities are working hard to ensure that, in addition to getting products in every school and college in Wales, they're available, as we all know, across a range of community venues, and this includes foodbanks and pantries, libraries, youth centres and community hubs. I'm pleased that every women's refuge in Wales has been offered funding to ensure they have period products available to support those fleeing domestic abuse. And we need to make sure free products are fully available and accessible in designated places and that people know about them and they're not locked away in machines that you have to pay for, as you said.
We're now developing a map of places in Wales where products are available, to give people control over seeking products and seeing where they are available near them. This will help eradicate barriers to access and promotes true period dignity. We've worked with local authorities to ensure the information is up to date and easily accessible, and you will be able to use the map's filters to identify different types of organisations that supply period products and find the place that is closest to you. Because ensuring that we get the products to reach those in need is critical to the success of the grant. We have commissioned an evaluation into the impact of the period dignity grant to understand how the current measures could be improved to ensure that it does reach vulnerable communities across Wales and also focuses support for those families who need access most to the projects funded through the grant. We're also asking local authorities to report against their spend twice a year instead of once a year, so that we can really closely monitor how the grant is distributed and make adjustments, if needed. We're processing this year's mid-year claims; we've seen promising work undertaken, including subscription services, where those in need can order products straight to their home address, in addition to ensuring that, in the case of emergency period products, they are available throughout the community. So, you can see from these examples that local authorities, who are at the delivery end, are actually learning how they can get the products to people as a result of engagement and learning through the delivery of the grant.
But we also have a chance to provide opportunities for a wider range of products, which have the added benefit of helping the environment. So, this year we've increased the requirement for local authorities to spend a percentage of their funding on reusable or plastic-free products from 50 per cent to 65 per cent. The initial cost of reusable products can of course be a barrier for some, and we want to give people an opportunity to try these products without being out of pocket. Reusable products may not be for everyone, and there's no pressure to switch to these products; it's about choice for the user, and they may choose to continue to use disposable products but opt for some that are plastic free instead, and these products can also contribute to the 65 per cent requirement. To support increasing knowledge and understanding of these projects, we've allowed up to 20 per cent of the grant allocated to local authorities to be used for the purposes of training or education within schools and communities for professionals, learners and community members, and any training and education must provide information about the opportunity to take home reusable period products. This, again, has come as a result of learning and feedback from local authorities that they need that training and education to engage, as I said, with the whole school staff and community.
So, we are committed to eradicating period poverty, continuing to look for ways to improve fair and equitable access to products, but we're clear that eradicating period poverty goes far beyond the provision of products. We want to eliminate the shame, stigma and silence that so frequently surrounds conversations about periods, which prevents some from accessing or being offered the help and support they need, and that maybe access to products, how to manage their period safely, understanding the menstrual cycle, having knowledge and understanding to make an informed choice about the products they use and when they may need support from a medical professional.
So, we are at the start of a new phase in the journey towards complete period dignity in Wales, and I'll shortly be publishing 'A period proud Wales', our plan for eliminating period poverty and achieving period dignity for all by 2027. This plan sets out our ambition to ensure that women, girls and people who menstruate have access to essential products when they need them, to provide education and resources to drive up understanding, and eradicate stigma and shame associated.
We will be launching a national campaign and call action for all to make Wales a period proud nation. We have had a lot of consultation to get us to this point, and I'm very pleased to say that I've engaged very much with our round-table of different interests and experiences—people from local authorities, organisations, Children in Wales and others, including Molly Fenton of the Love Your Period campaign. Molly has been a key part of our engagement. It's been very cross-governmental in terms of education, health and collaboration with the NHS's Bloody Brilliant web resource. So, I think, just to say again, in response, Heledd, to your points about Molly Fenton's contribution, I endorse your support and recognition of what Molly has achieved, her strength, her courage, and condemn the abuse that she experienced as a result of her campaigning stance. She continues to engage with us and influence us, because we need that expert advice of people with lived experience on the development of policy and strategy. I am, in fact, meeting the group at the end of this month, and they will be very pleased to hear about this debate today.
Can I just thank Children in Wales, Women Connect First and Fair Treatment for the Women of Wales—they've all supported us in engaging with young people—and also all of those who we've met through schools, and, indeed, Women Connect First enabling us to meet particularly with black, Asian and minority ethnic women?
So, finally, just to say, in terms of your call for legislation, we've not currently identified a need for legislation, given the breadth of work we're undertaking and the culture change that I do believe is already starting, because our work is based on mutual learning and collaboration to achieve the progress that legislation could offer. But we are remaining in close contact with our colleagues in Scotland and in Northern Ireland to understand the impact of the legislation and any lessons that we can learn. But I'm proud of the work that we are undertaking in Wales together to eliminate period poverty and achieve period dignity, and I thank you for your contribution today with this debate, and believe we are well on our way to becoming a period proud nation. Diolch.

Thank you, Minister, and thank you, Heledd, for this debate. That brings today's proceedings to a close.

The meeting ended at 18:53.

QNR

Questions to the Minister for Social Justice

Altaf Hussain: What action is the Minister taking to improve community cohesion in South Wales West?

Jane Hutt: Our community cohesion programme enables the Western Bay regional cohesion team, funded by Welsh Government, to link up with partners, including the police and third sector, to promote cohesion in South Wales West. Their work includes direct engagement with communities, mitigation of community tensions, and delivery of training and events.

Vikki Howells: Will the Minister set out the Welsh Government’s response to the recommendations contained in the Children’s Commissioner for Wales 2021/22 Annual Report?

Jane Hutt: I welcome the recommendations in the children’s commissioner’s annual report. The publication of the report provides an important opportunity for us to focus on children’s rights. The First Minister will publish the Welsh Government response by 30 November, so I am not in a position to provide the details today.

Questions to the Deputy Minister for Social Partnership

Llyr Gruffydd: What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact of the Royal Mail dispute on its workers and services in Wales?

Hannah Blythyn: I am, of course, concerned about the ongoing impact on postal services workers and their families, especially in light of the cost-of-living crisis. I am advised that Royal Mail has contingency plans in place that it has put into practice but continue to liaise with the company on this matter.